IRC logs for #automotive for Tuesday, 2016-02-16

« Monday, 2016-02-15 Index Wednesday, 2016-02-17 »
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CTtpollardchbae: hey how's it going?08:47
chbaeCTtpollard: good. how are you?08:53
CTtpollardchbae: I'm great, just looking at your jira ticket, did you add the --backend=drm-backend.so to the weston service?08:54
chbaeCTtpollard: Not yet. I'll debug tomorrow :)08:54
chbaeCTtpollard: I'll try it.08:54
CTtpollardchbae: no problem :) just checking out your github08:55
chbaeCTtpollard: I'll go home now. Let's talk tonight :) Now. it's 6:00 PM KST.08:56
chbaeCTtpollard: All changes about today's task are in my github. :)08:57
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jeremiahApparently W3C has an IRC channle: irc.w3.org #genivi10:48
jeremiahNo one there ATM.10:48
rjekDoes a channel with nobody in really exist?10:48
rjek</philosophy>10:48
jeremiahAt least I don't get kicked from it.10:51
jeremiahWell, until I tire of talking to myself10:51
rjek:)10:51
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dl9pf1### AGL SAT meeting (replaces dev meeting today) ###13:04
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CTtpollardI've downloaded the agl binary, and it boots into weston desktop shell. Do I need to run something to bring up the HMI?13:46
TarnykoCTtpollard: $ cd /opt/CES2016 ; LD_PRELOAD=/usr/lib/libEGL.so /usr/bin/qt5/qmlscene -I . Main.qml13:47
CTtpollardTarnyko: thanks :)13:48
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TarnykoCTtpollard: yw :) (there's a script somewhere to run it auto., never remember it)13:48
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CTtpollardMain.qml:23 module "system" not installed?13:53
Tarnykolooks strange, I'll see on my board...13:54
TarnykoCTtpollard: did you create the image yourself ?13:55
CTtpollardTarnyko: I downloaded the qemu binary and rootfs from https://download.automotivelinux.org/AGL/release/albacore/latest/qemux86-64/deploy/13:55
TarnykoCTtpollard: ho, qemu ; I can try that (after some download time of course)13:56
CTtpollardTarnyko: I am to build for the porter at somepoint, my yocto builder is currently busy though13:56
toscalixjeremiah: ping13:56
Tarnykoyes ; HMI should work as well, though13:57
dl9pf1Tarnyko: CTtpollard: there are also snapshot builds ... https://download.automotivelinux.org/AGL/snapshots/master/latest/qemux86-64/deploy/images/qemux86-64/13:57
TarnykoCTtpollard: evaluates download time to +30 mins ; will come back to you when I get it13:58
CTtpollarddl9pf1: I'll try from that source next, see if Tarnyko has the same issue13:59
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TarnykoCTtpollard: good command was : $ cd /opt/AGL/CES2016 ; LD_PRELOAD=/usr/lib/libEGL.so /usr/bin/qt5/qmlscene -I imports Main.qml (I missed the "imports")14:42
Tarnykosorry for that14:42
CTtpollardTarnyko: no worries, thanks for investigating!14:42
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rZrTarnyko, hi  try to replace "qmlscene" by just "qml"16:51
rZrTarnyko, this didnt work in earlier versions but that's the Qt way to load qml apps16:51
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TarnykorZr: trying this16:54
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TarnykorZr: works well, thanks ! If it's the recommended way, we should probably modify our scripts to use it16:58
rZrTarnyko, it's not a big deal but I wanted to share this tip ;)16:59
* rZr <3 qml16:59
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aeicheGood morning Automotive18:21
aeicheor, whatever appropriate greeting suits your timezone18:21
myselfhttp://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html18:21
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aeicheheh18:43
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jlrmagnusmyself: Brilliant.19:01
JEEBit seems like vulkan is no longer vapourware19:01
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aeicheWhat is Vulkan?19:26
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JEEBaeiche: https://www.khronos.org/vulkan/19:27
JEEBYet Another Graphics API19:27
aeicheDoes it actually have momentum?19:30
JEEBseems to have at least some sort of momentum due to drivers actually getting released on publishing day19:31
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jjardonvulkan support for the mesa intel driver is already in a branch; it will probably get merged in the next mesa release22:10
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OneMinerhey guys23:16
OneMinerI was thinking about using undersized turbos. Keeping the engine in boost more of the time. Giving up top end for torquy low.23:21
OneMinerI wonder if that might positively affect fuel economy by reducing pumping losses and giving the charge more time to burn at low(er) rpms23:22
OneMinerand if so, what kind of engine management issues might come up?23:22
myselfby increasing backpressure and keeping the charge from clearing the cylinder properly? Yeah, about that..23:25
OneMinerthe engine would have to use less energy drawing air in, more in pushing it out23:25
myselfIf you want to shorten your exhaust valve timing, do it with the valve train, not by constricting the exhaust. Exhaust constriction will accomplish very little at low loads, and become absolutely choking at high loads, basically the opposite of what you want.23:25
OneMinerwell, how about mating a larger turbine with a relatively smaller turbine?23:27
OneMinerless backpressure23:27
OneMineryou'd achieve the same effect, right? The compressor would get wheezy at high RPMs but should come onto boost faster23:28
myselfThere ought to be a way to simulate that.23:29
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OneMinerwhat I'm more interested in is if the fuel economy part makes sense.23:29
OneMinerGiving the charge longer to burn by shifting earlier. That by having huge torque very low in the rev range23:30
myselfMore gears in the tranny to keep the engine in its most efficient RPM range is always good, that doesn't require a turbo though.23:31
OneMinerI guess you'd have to give it more fuel if you're boosting. So maybe it's a wash as far as economy goes23:31
OneMinerturbo ought to be far cheaper than that.23:31
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myselfA turbo is inherently inefficient, because it adds restrictions to the intake and exhaust paths. The only reason it's a win is it lets you get away with a lighter-by-weight engine, and saving pounds equals better mileage.23:31
OneMinerI don't disagree with you there.23:32
myselfSo to know whether it's a win, you have to figure the "cost" of weight on your drive cycle. How hard do you accelerate? how often?23:32
OneMinerBut the way of using one I'm wondering about is atypical. Maybe it would be different from what you describe23:32
OneMinerwell, no, I'm talking about shifting earlier. And getting the same results for it23:33
OneMinerAccelerating at the same rate but shifting at 2k instead of 2.3, for example23:33
myselfShifting earlier means you need more gears, though.23:33
OneMinerno....23:33
OneMinerforget about top speed.23:34
OneMinerI'm talking about cruising and city traffic23:34
myselfwhich are polar opposites in drive cycle terms23:34
OneMiner@_@ u trolling?23:34
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myselfcruising is sustained speed, little acceleration. City traffic is frequent acceleration and stopping, low top speed.23:35
OneMinerYes, agreed23:35
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myselffor a vehicle that only ever cruises, give it a two-cylinder overdriven NA diesel and use a JATO bottle to get it up to speed. Once you're there, it's insanely efficient.23:36
myselfFor a vehicle that's in city traffic and doesn't care about top speed, give it a battery and an e-motor, leave the combustion engine at home, call it a day.23:36
OneMinerOk, so. Let's limit the scope to "regular" acceleration. Normal driving where you'd accelerate to a speed.23:36
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myselfOkay, what are the tradeoffs with a normal turbo; what happens when you make it smaller or larger?23:37
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myself(By the way, I may try that JATO thing as a tailgater-deterrent.)23:37
OneMinerI'm talking about shifting the powerband lower23:37
OneMinerI'm interested in 800-3k RPM23:38
OneMinerForget about the rest of the powerband23:38
myselfso you're sparking less often, getting fewer power strokes per second, meaning each cylinder, or each unit of displacement, is doing less work per unit time. It's more efficient per unit fuel, but you need more displacement to achieve the same work.23:39
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myselfand to get that, you're gonna try shoving more air into the cylinder, instead of making the cylinder larger. Fairly typical turbo usage.23:39
OneMineryar23:39
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myselfwhat ratio of RPM is a turbo useful over? From the point where it starts to work, to the point where it's choking you?23:40
OneMinerYa, that's a big question. I guess the quality of the compressor and housing would come into this.23:41
OneMinerthe size of the sweet spot on it, idk what to call it23:42
OneMinerefficiency23:42
myselfI suspect it's almost always very close to a dimensionless ratio regardless of the individual turbo, though23:42
OneMinerI'm just guessing. Just being a curious nerd23:43
myselfcurious nerd good! Curious nerd with simulation tools, even better.23:43
OneMinerDepending, I'd be willing to sacrifice all kinds of top end for a fat (FAT(PHAT)) bottom end23:44
myselfMy suspicion is that a turbo that works well at your target low RPMs will become a liability at high RPMs, restricting your shift points, and to cover a useful speed range, your transmission needs.. umm.. I won't say it. but other parts of the system get more complex and heavier.23:44
OneMinerNah, I'm not concerned with that, TBH23:45
OneMinerGearing would be fine IMO23:45
myselfand at some point that negates the gains. Where exactly that point falls, depends on a lot of nuances like how good you are at making tubos versus transmissions, little stuff like cylinder seal and valve leakage (it starts to matter at low RPMs), etc.23:45
OneMinerEven if the new "redline" is like... 4k from 6 or something23:45
myselfso I'm sure there are factors that would cause that point to shift; there may be situations where your tradeoff is the better one, but I suspect cars aren't made that way because they have to cover a different/broader set of usage parameters.23:46
myselfOr, cheat: Use a CVT or E-CVT and powerband becomes all but irrelevant.23:46
OneMinerOh sure, I agree.23:46
OneMinerAnd the complexity of it23:46
myselfAim for a single RPM and make it damn good at that RPM.23:47
myselfthen slap a Prius badge on the side and pat yourself on the back. ;)23:47
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OneMinerWell, I figure that this kind of thing would get good synergy from the stock setup. Your typical economy car is already setup for low end23:48
OneMinerI bet you've got to get out of lean burn mode on the ECU if you're making over a pound or two23:49
myselfWhich is where it spends 90% of its time, but that other 10% is getting away from red lights, merging onto the highway, etc. And it needs to be able to breathe during that 10%. Choke that and it becomes nearly undriveable.23:49
OneMinerIt would take a fat wastegate and a boost controller, minimum. IMO23:49
OneMinernah, I don't figure it would be choked at all.23:50
OneMinerI'm talking about sizing that turbo pretty small.23:50
myselfOh neat. BSFC graphs for turbocharged engines are all sorts of funky.23:50
OneMinerSo that you're boosting at part throttle and at low RPMs23:50
OneMinerPretending it's a roots style blower :P23:51
myselfPostive displacement is easier to model but has higher mechanical losses..23:52
OneMinerThat's what I'm talking about.23:52
OneMinerHuge torque way low in the power band. Right where you need it for city driving23:53
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