IRC logs for #automotive for Thursday, 2015-09-03

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paulsherwoodmorning all06:53
paulsherwoodgunnarx, jeremiah - are you around?06:53
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gunnarxyep06:57
paulsherwoodgreat06:57
paulsherwoodi'm writing some background, will paste in a momnet06:57
gunnarxif it's just us I'm thinking a combination of voice call and irc might be really efficient06:58
paulsherwoodcan do that06:58
gunnarxirc scales better than voice for many people, but if we're 3...06:58
gunnarxlet's wait for jeremiah06:58
gunnarxpaulsherwood: do you have your secret telco code for tools meeting? :)  alt. we'll use SAT.07:00
gunnarxhost code I mean :)07:00
paulsherwoodi have that code yes07:00
gunnarxok07:01
* paulsherwood looks for it :)07:02
paulsherwoodok i've started a call, guest code is 4145919940207:03
gunnarxno I don't think it is, because I know it by heart :)07:04
paulsherwooduk dialin if anyone is interested is +44 330 336 600107:04
gunnarxsmall mistake, but it doesn't matter, you don't need to post it07:04
paulsherwooderk07:04
gunnarxthe necessary info is in the GENIVI wiki under Teleconferencing07:04
paulsherwood414919940207:05
gunnarxlooks better07:05
paulsherwoodtopic will be mirroring of source code07:05
gunnarxexcept that I wouldn't have posted it on a public channel07:05
gunnarxyes07:05
paulsherwoodwhy not?07:06
paulsherwoodtools team discussion is public, i got approval to use genivi facilities for calls07:06
gunnarxbecause the code may be used for other calls07:06
gunnarxit's not unique to tools07:07
paulsherwoodah, i understand. sorry07:07
gunnarxunfortunately07:07
paulsherwoodwell, maybe genivi would benefit from gatecrashers :)07:07
paulsherwoodbut still, i'll flag this to others as a data breach07:07
paulsherwoodanyway, im on the call if you want to join...07:08
paulsherwoodand will paste this...07:08
gunnarxif they would join the calls and actually engage in the conversation, yes :)07:08
gunnarxoh we started? :)07:08
gunnarxlet me get that outdated thing we call a phone07:08
paulsherwoodiirc we should talk about mirroring of repos for genivi and possibly other situations.07:08
paulsherwoodthe basic premise is that it's sensible to maintain a copy of upstreams' code so that if upstream goes down or moves, our systems (eg automated build systems) are unaffected07:08
paulsherwoodthe baserock project has been doing this for a few years... we have an appliance called 'trove' which does the mirroring07:08
paulsherwoodwe've made some opinionated decisions on what we see as 'good practice' here...07:08
paulsherwoodthe most obvious one is that we prefer to put everything in git, so downstream tooling doesn't have to handle svn, hg, bzr, cvs etc07:08
paulsherwoodmaybe the next-most important thing is that we collect updates every day07:08
paulsherwoodthat doesn't mean builds need to adopt the updates, but at least we've got them for when we need them07:08
paulsherwoodthere are various corner-cases to deal with (eg occasionally upstreams behave badly, re-writing history) but this soln has been working reliably for us (24/7 with only a few outages) since 201207:08
paulsherwoodit requires very little maintenance (occasional updates, checking free space etc)07:08
paulsherwoodand it's deployable on cloud or inhouse07:08
paulsherwoodjeremiah: are you around?07:09
gunnarxone sec paul i'll be with you07:10
paulsherwoodk07:10
paulsherwoodso one thing i'm unclear on is how genivi infrastructure decisions/operations/mgmt are handled. iiuc there are multiple parties involved already07:11
paulsherwoodone or more of those could create and host an appliance such as this, or a new participant could do so07:12
paulsherwoodanother question is the 'forking recipes' discussion from last week, which i found myself unable to comment properly on07:13
paulsherwood(and i should mention backups, security etc)07:14
gunnarxyou still there?07:35
jeremiahHi!07:41
jeremiahSorry07:41
jeremiahWe have someone celebrating a birthday in the office so I started my day with a little cake. :-)07:42
gunnarxhi jeremiah07:42
* jeremiah reads discussion so far07:43
paulsherwoodmost of the discussion is on the call, i'm afraid07:44
jeremiahOkay, I'll hop on07:44
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paulsherwoodunfortunately i have a hardstop at 09:0007:54
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gunnarxhttps://github.com/gunnarx/gdp-source08:13
CTtpollardinteresting08:13
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CTtpollardgunnarx: has this been linked from the phone discussion?08:23
gunnarxCTtpollard: yes08:31
gunnarxso let me give some context08:31
gunnarxfirst, this is experimentation08:31
gunnarxdo you have any experience with git annex?08:31
CTtpollardgunnarx: not first-hand08:32
CTtpollardI am aware of it though08:32
gunnarxme and paul never got to this level of detail, but agreed to move forward in clarifying the options08:32
gunnarxso I don't think git-annex is user friendly for most of our users first of all :)  some have enough trouble with the git submodules :)08:32
gunnarxbut what I find interesting about this is that gitannex tracks the content precisely (using git, and sha sums)08:33
gunnarxif you clone that repo, you get just a lot of broken symlinks, but what those symlinks point to will precisely define the content08:34
gunnarxin order to actually get the content, you would need a git-annex repository that actually has the content (github copy does not), and fetch it from that08:34
gunnarxa neat thing is that it is still a git repo at the surface.  If I were to put this as a submodule into my gdp project (I'm saying "my" because I don't know if this is usable for all)08:35
gunnarx... then just like with the layers, there's a hash that 100% defines the content in the downloads directory that would be needed to make a successful build.08:36
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CTtpollardgunnarx: and would you expect genivi to be the host of the actual content, which others could sync off?08:53
gunnarxyeah08:53
gunnarxi'm careful...  it's just experiments08:53
gunnarxso so far I'm not expecting much, but *if* you want to use this, you need a mirror (or many) to host the actual content, yes08:54
gunnarxthing is, it might be more logical to expect people to have rsync as a dependency and use that instead of git-annex (for example)08:56
gunnarxI'm not convinced about if git-annex is something that should be required.  Although I admit by now it is becoming standard software that is packaged in most distros08:57
CTtpollardI like the idea of it potentially being a sub-module, which a user could sync to do local yocto builds08:58
gunnarxyeah in principle it's cool right? :)08:58
CTtpollardobviously there needs to be a lot more orchestration than that though08:58
gunnarxyou have the scripts, and the sources 100% controlled.  build should not be able to fail basically.08:59
gunnarxrsyncing would work well to fetch but only git-annex would (at least with this setup) give you a guarantee that you have all the sources, and the correct versionsif you want it to be failsafe.09:00
CTtpollardhow do we go about maintaining the sources that are checkedin the annex repo?09:00
gunnarxgranted, yocto will do checksum checks,I just mean with this you can know beforehand that the build should not fail09:00
CTtpollardyeh the sha's for using git-annex are ++ over rsync for me09:00
gunnarxif this is offered as part of a project the maintainer needs to maintain also the git-annex repo09:01
gunnarxthat activity is made up of "git annex add" and "git rm" on the files.  (yes it's asymmetrical, but that's how you do it)09:02
gunnarxfollowed by "git annex sync" and "git annex copy --to <contentmirror>" most likely, which pushes the content to the mirror.09:03
CTtpollardgunnarx: and would this take troves approach of taking daily updates, even if we're not using the latest upstream commits? or would we only update sources on a needs basis?09:05
gunnarximho, the purpose of pulling the latest updates from upstream all the time is only to make them visible in the git web?09:06
gunnarxunless you as maintainer are pulling those changes into the "official" build, testing and committing a new version of the build that works, then there is no need to pull them every day.  that's a work process thing that I think is independent.09:07
gunnarxnice to have, but I don't know what it has to do with publishing a build setup.  the published build builds the exact content you have defined it to build, irrespective of what new changes the upstream may contain.09:08
CTtpollardindeed09:14
CTtpollardin the case of GDP09:14
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CTtpollardfor development of genivi / agl on a wider scale, then keep a constant mirror of upstream sounds more useful09:19
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gunnarxI still don't see it, but this seems to be important for Codethink. There is some kind of working process that makes this useful I guess.  That's what is missing in the discussion.  I'm fine with it.  We can mirror as many gits as we like.09:27
* paulsherwood reads backscroll09:28
CTtpollardI'm not taking a Codethink view on it :)09:28
paulsherwoodCTtpollard: :-)09:28
CTtpollardI can just see the benefits for developers09:29
gunnarxCTtpollard:  good for you :-)09:29
gunnarxWhat is it you do with the upstream code you have pulled in?  Study it?  Compare your master/develop branch with the upstream?  How do you do that comparison?09:31
gunnarxs/you/theoretical GENIVI,AGL developer/09:33
CTtpollardI know I have source to which I can pull everything I need, without relying on n number of hosts09:34
paulsherwoodgunnarx: fwiw I'm not taking a Codethink-specific view either. I'm taking a purist engineering view. you may think i'm over-engineering :)09:37
gunnarx?09:37
gunnarxBut how do you know you need what suddenly appeared upstream the last 24h.09:37
paulsherwoodin my (personal) worldview we need to be advancing lots of upstreams, faster than a single integration engineer can keep up with09:38
gunnarxWhat you absolutely need to have available without relying on n hosts is what you already have in your repo because your current stable build depends on it.09:38
paulsherwoodgunnarx: we can make some decisions about what we need and what we don't, for some of the work09:38
paulsherwoodthat's one thing you need, yes :)09:38
gunnarxpaulsherwood:  that's only useful if you are going to actually look at that code.  so again, I'm asking about the day to day processes.  What do you actually do with it?09:39
paulsherwoodand then you need a guaranteed configuration of 'build-system' that you can reproduce if your specific build machine dies09:39
gunnarxthat is covered above09:39
gunnarx"is what you already have in your repo"09:40
paulsherwoodwe actually advance shas, and build them09:40
gunnarxnow we're getting somewhere!09:40
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gunnarxOK, so we are talking about automated test builds based on the latest upstream sources to see if they break09:41
paulsherwoodgunnarx: i thought you knew this. i was demonstrating building genivi systems with latest kernel regularly at genivi events for the last couple of ywars?09:41
gunnarxthe point is, this is the level of detail that is never covered.09:41
gunnarxin our discussions.   All you claim is "we need the latest source all the time"09:41
paulsherwoodi stand by that claim :)09:41
gunnarxbut you fail, so far, to explain why09:42
paulsherwoodi don't trust all upstreams. some misbehave :)09:42
gunnarxnow you're backtracking (IMHO)09:42
gunnarxmy point being, that why would you base your builds on that misbehaving upstream...09:42
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paulsherwoodbecause genivi decided to, for example?09:43
gunnarxthere is normally a process (including the test builds you mention, which are good) to move code from just an idea, to something you have accepted into your stable product09:43
gunnarxcode that appears, and then disappears in the upstream can't be a significant important part...09:43
paulsherwoodor because jrandom project made choices which later proved to be bad?09:43
paulsherwoodgunnarx: what if upstream gets hacked?09:43
gunnarxgit is safe09:43
paulsherwoodnope09:43
gunnarx?09:44
gunnarxhacked, with what exact result?  unavailable repo, or modified repo?09:44
paulsherwoodnothing is really 'safe'... we just need to bear in mind the risks, but that's offtopic probably09:44
paulsherwoodboth are possible09:44
Figuregit + gerrit Qt does fine with those09:45
Figureci for building09:45
gunnarxyeah off topic maybe but importantly for me, it's not precise.  I'm aiming for our discussion to be based on precise, real differences09:46
gunnarxplease don't just say "hacked" and not explain what it means for our discussion09:46
paulsherwoodFigure: that's great - do you know how they deal with the non-Qt source?09:46
gunnarxgit is safe from the perspective of content not being altered.  we agree on that point at least?09:46
paulsherwoodif we have a git mirror with sensible security policies, we can hope to notice if/when upstream re-writes history etc09:48
gunnarxagreed09:48
paulsherwoodbut, for example, if you don't know about ''GIT_NO_REPLACE_OBJECTS', you could easily be mislet09:48
paulsherwoodmisled. (i believe, based on my colleagues' observations... i am not an expert in this)09:49
gunnarxI don't know what that is either.  shall we go back on topic?09:50
paulsherwoodit's ON TOPIC09:50
gunnarxon which topic? :)09:51
paulsherwood:-)09:51
gunnarxso what's the deal with GIT_NO_REPLACE_OBJECTS then?09:51
paulsherwoodgit can be fudged and most users won't notice is the upshot09:51
Figurepaulsherwood: depends on 3rd party09:51
Figurepaulsherwood: on qtwebengine we use submodule09:51
gunnarxok, surprising.09:51
paulsherwoodgunnarx: i was surprised too09:52
Figureand directly link to certaing known working version of chromium09:52
paulsherwoodFigure: pulling direct from upstream?09:52
gunnarxI'm more concerned with us going through the working process to understand what we need.09:52
Figurein git you need to manually update the submodule sha which is fetched09:52
Figureso it's always predefined09:52
Figureand freezed when e.g. making Qt 5.509:53
gunnarxYou provided one specific input that makes sense to me so far which is automatically building with the latest upstream code in order to try it, does it fail, does it succeed?09:53
paulsherwoodgunnarx: well, what we need depends on what we think the work is, i think09:53
gunnarxi would agree, I've been trying to get our conversation into those details09:53
gunnarxsuch trial builds are not critical and could also pull the source from upstream into the build directory.  the risk of the upstream not being available is not a risk since this is not a critical build.09:55
paulsherwoodthat's your opinion, i think - who knows what's critical?09:56
paulsherwoodbut you may be right :)09:57
gunnarxI'm just pointing it out because in this conversation I frequently see a mix of "we need to know the source is available at all times" and "we need to have exactly repeatable builds" and "we need the latest upstream source all the time"09:57
paulsherwoodok, i can stop saying those things, that's fine09:58
gunnarxthey're different is all I'm saying09:58
gunnarxthey can have different solutions.  In principle I have no problem with continuous mirroring of all git repos.09:59
gunnarxjust want the arguments to be sound09:59
paulsherwoodthing is, i don't think we need to argue10:00
paulsherwoodwe can continue getting stuff done... show me the code is usually best, as you know :)10:00
gunnarxYes I saw it more as a shared analysis10:00
paulsherwoodi'm thinkign about your git-annex idea10:00
gunnarxwe'll keep working on figuring out the connection to yocto builds based on git-only, or based on poky/oe layers as-is10:00
gunnarxI'd be happy to answer any questions :)10:01
paulsherwoodi don't have any for the moment - it seems a bit clunky (as with the submodules approach) but can work and maybe it's good enough for many usecases10:01
paulsherwoodand to be fair, most software is clunky, isn't it :)10:02
gunnarxa fair analysis, on both points10:02
paulsherwoodFigure: so i may be misunderstanding but i think a difference is that Qt is interested in ci Qt, which is admittedly a humungous amount of code...but still it's Qt...10:03
paulsherwoodwhereas we're interested in ci for a set of complete systems with various versions of Qt integrated into them... to be supported for 10 years or more10:04
paulsherwood(or maybe it's just me that's interested in that)10:04
* paulsherwood needs to dash for a while10:04
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Figurepaulsherwood: I would suggest how debian is doing it10:08
Figurepaulsherwood: they have been supporting multiple versions of debian through out the years and have proven rock solid way of creating new stable releases10:09
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Figurebtw also in Qt we have this new thing called Device Creation package that also contains different environments for different platform. It's created using yocto and git10:10
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paulsherwoodFigure: that seems sensible. but then debian expressly avoids cross-compile iiuc10:37
rjekYes, everything is built natively on Debian10:37
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CTtpollardjonathanmaw has a patch on a development branch for meta-genivi-demo, it has a +1 off jeremiah and I'm happy to back it myself and merge11:01
CTtpollarddo we want to follow any process when doing this, or should I just reply to the thread with merged?11:01
paulsherwoodi think that's the process, tbh :)11:03
CTtpollardpaulsherwood: cool11:07
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CTtpollardooi has anyone tried a build with the genivi-demo-platform repo, whilst following the wiki instructions?11:17
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gunnarxthrowing out a few more ideas: one thing git-annex does is dedup the files. so if the project provides different branches with slightly different content in the sources/downloads folder, you will be storing a single superset of what the branches needs11:26
gunnarxan alternative is to host different directories per build (or actually per tag/hash/version however far back you want to provide history)11:27
gunnarxand what you'd do then is to hardlink all the files that are identical to the same physical file on disk (like rsnap and similar backup systems)11:27
gunnarxthat's going down the route of "invent something and provide some convenience scripts..." but it avoids users to have git annex installed11:28
gunnarxboth for the mirror and for the users, deduplicating files makes sense.11:30
gunnarxyes, paulsherwood, git also achieves some dedup :)  But it also stores all the history you are not using - from the perspective of the actual build that is.11:30
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CTtpollardwhen you say 'project provides' which project are you referring to?11:34
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gunnarxwell any project. the hypothetical project that would include a downloads dir in the form of a git-annex repo12:03
gunnarxI meant if the sources folder was a submodule like we discussed12:04
gunnarxthe submodule is versioned / branched, like the meta layers are now12:05
gunnarxone of the nice things with git-annex, since the metadata is commited to git multiple variants (branches) of that metadata can be maintained using normal git. (diff / merge / etc.)12:07
gunnarxposted some more info/example: http://paste.baserock.org/owumusiyuf12:27
paulsherwoodand the content is tarballs? or something else?12:30
gunnarxI'd like it to be consistent, so all tarballs.  but this is not what yocto is producing atm.  It's still doing a checkout of svn repos.12:35
gunnarxanother option is SRPMs. I imagine Yocto can produce them?12:35
gunnarxjeremiah was going to get info from yocto upstream, on this, and general advice12:36
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gunnarxOr, a novel idea, we could read the documentation :)  http://www.yoctoproject.org/docs/1.8/mega-manual/mega-manual.html#maintaining-open-source-license-compliance-during-your-products-lifecycle12:40
rjekReading the manual is like reading the last page of a murder mystery novel first.  Spoils all the fun.12:41
CTtpollardmega-manual fills me with joy12:42
gunnarxyou have to admit it's a cool name at least12:44
CTtpollardif it contains 1x10^6 pages12:45
gunnarxmega manual is the concatenation of all yocto manuals in one.  /me likes12:46
rjekDoes it have more pages than atoms in the universe?12:46
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gunnarxrjek: no it doesn't12:48
rjekWell at least we have that :)12:49
gunnarxI checked and the whole manual can be digitally stored and the current state of the art digital storage density is vastly lower than one page per atom. ergo.12:52
rjek:)12:53
* gunnarx has gone into asperger mode now, so beware12:53
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CTtpollardpatch merged12:55
gunnarx(if any of the readers are diagnosed with Asperger syndrome, let me be clear that it is OK to have that diagnosis)12:56
gunnarxCTtpollard: woot13:00
CTtpollardjust updating submodules now13:00
gunnarxNow, why is there so much x11 junk reported when doing a minnowboard build?13:00
jeremiahCTtpollard: I followed the wiki instructions for a Porter GDP build13:41
CTtpollardok all branches of gdp repo have the submodule update13:46
CTtpollardjeremiah: cool, do you think anything could be added to the steps?13:47
jeremiahCTtpollard: I think the steps, at least as I followed them, were pretty darn good.13:47
jeremiahI changed the networking stuff13:47
jeremiahI should say that I changed my networking config rather.13:48
jeremiahBut that is not really super relevant I suppose.13:48
CTtpollardjeremiah: it could be, what did you go about doing?13:49
jeremiahWell, I wanted ssh without passwords, so I set it up that way.13:49
jeremiahI wanted this since I thought I'd use a test user with a shared public key for login13:50
CTtpollardwith authorised keys?13:50
CTtpollardah ok cool13:50
jeremiahYeah, since it would be scriptable that way13:50
jeremiahI'll reuse the authorized keys file for the test user to run tests on the Porter.13:50
jeremiahI'm not so sure this is the best way to go for writing tests in Qemu though.13:51
jeremiahIn any case, I don't have any additions to the wiki as far as the instructions go. :-)13:52
CTtpollardwere you making root passwordless? I'm not sure if you mean a local test user or a test user on the gdp13:53
jeremiahgunnarx: The mega-manual seems to provide a pretty clear and comprehensive approach to hosting source13:53
jeremiahCTtpollard: I decided to create a test user instead of root13:53
jeremiah(I use my personal ssh key, i.e. ~/.ssh/id_rsa) when I shell in, i.e. 'ssh test@porter'13:54
CTtpollardunderstood13:55
jeremiahCTtpollard: Do you think this is sane?13:55
jeremiahWould you do it differently?13:55
CTtpollarddepending on the tests you're trying to run13:56
CTtpollardbut I tend to setup passwordless on most of my machines13:56
jeremiahYeah, this won't fit some tests clearly.13:56
gunnarxjeremiah:  yes, it says what configuration to add to create the source packages.  need to study the result...13:58
CTtpollardgunnarx: is it reporting anything which is making the build fail?13:58
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* CTtpollard starts a build14:14
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gunnarxif you're asking about minnowboard, no, it is reported as warnings, or maybe even errors (I think) but it builds an image.14:16
gunnarxyou see it at the beginning of the build14:16
gunnarxx11 and qt4 garbage :)14:16
gunnarxx11 and qt4 bad, wayland and qt5 good!14:17
gunnarxI suppose it must come from the intel bsp then...?14:18
CTtpollardok I've just got them now14:22
jeremiahHmm, I think I should go and get a Minnow board14:22
jeremiahall the cool kids have them14:22
CTtpollardyes it looks like intel is calling it14:24
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CTtpollardfrom the intel-corei7-64.conf in meta-intel14:40
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jlrmagnusMorning15:47
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