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| laurenceurhegyi | www.trustable.io homepage is missing the tabs which navigate to the other pages | 11:13 |
|---|---|---|
| laurenceurhegyi | for me, at least. anyone else? | 11:14 |
| laurenceurhegyi | I'm look for the 'Other Projects' page. | 11:14 |
| laurenceurhegyi | s/look/looking | 11:14 |
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| paulsherwood | http://trustable.gitlab.io/projects.html | 11:32 |
| paulsherwood | laurenceurhegyi: ^^ | 11:32 |
| * paulsherwood will check what happeneed to the tabs | 11:32 | |
| laurenceurhegyi | ta | 11:38 |
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| laurenceurhegyi | Some encouraging news - we now have some representation on the C Safety and Security Study Group from folk involved with open source static analysis tools | 11:41 |
| laurenceurhegyi | One person keen to get on board is a chap names Kostya Serebryany, who works at Google and is involved with both ASAN and MSAN. | 11:42 |
| laurenceurhegyi | AlisonChaiken, it was your comments on here that highlighted these projects to me, so thanks. | 11:42 |
| laurenceurhegyi | I'm currently trying to work out who is involved in UBSAN and see if they're interested in joining. | 11:43 |
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| ChrisPolin | Hi all, I've been working on a basic 'workflow/guideline/System Structure' (for want of a better name) for satisfying the criteria of linking requirements/standard compliance to code and the developer responsible for it. It's very high-level and preliminary, with a lot of gaps to be filled in, but consider it an initial framework and I'm very open to suggestions as to what is feasible and what is not. | 14:57 |
| ChrisPolin | https://gitlab.com/trustable/overview/wikis/TrustableSystemStructure | 14:57 |
| laurenceurhegyi | By the end of next week, we need to get to the point whereby we can look at this method / system structure and the requirements and say ‘yes, that’s what we should create, that would be trustable’. | 14:59 |
| laurenceurhegyi | A lot of it is currently theoretical, of course. | 14:59 |
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| AlisonChaiken | Cool, laurenceurhegyi. | 17:02 |
| AlisonChaiken | What puzzles me about the discussion is how we can tell if our methods make a system more trustable. | 17:03 |
| AlisonChaiken | The topic seems to lack well-defined metrics that I am aware of. | 17:03 |
| jmacs | Good question | 17:03 |
| AlisonChaiken | For the coming fancy neural-nets stuff, I do think in it's mostly in C++ or Go, not C. | 17:04 |
| AlisonChaiken | I remain a C programmer myself, but for a while I was assigned to the HW group at work, because the real SW engineers consider C to be 'firmware.' | 17:04 |
| AlisonChaiken | BTW, laurenceurhegyi, we're already running the SANs as part of our nightly build. | 17:21 |
| AlisonChaiken | There are some parts of the code that aren't up to it (did someone mention Qt?), but at least our own code passes. | 17:22 |
| laurenceurhegyi | That's good to know about running the SANs, AlisonChaiken. | 17:31 |
| laurenceurhegyi | That's interesting to note re things that aren't being written in C | 17:32 |
| laurenceurhegyi | I think a key thing for the Study Group will be to carefully define and limit the scope of places where it is reasonable to use C for safety-critical software and provide clear guidance about alternatives that would be better for other purposes. | 17:33 |
| laurenceurhegyi | Regarding <AlisonChaiken> The topic seems to lack well-defined metrics that I am aware of. | 17:34 |
| laurenceurhegyi | Do you mean the trustable discussion in general, or the C safety and security study group? | 17:35 |
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| AlisonChaiken | I mean trustable in general. I'm not trying to criticize anyone. | 18:05 |
| AlisonChaiken | Is there a 'gold standard' for trustability? What is one metric? | 18:05 |
| AlisonChaiken | I also don't mean to imply C++ is better, but if that's what people use, then trustability needs to include it. | 18:06 |
| laurenceurhegyi | Yes, agreed. | 18:12 |
| laurenceurhegyi | metrics is an interesting question indeed | 18:12 |
| laurenceurhegyi | I find myself thinking about the following for software to be trustable: | 18:13 |
| laurenceurhegyi | - we know where it comes from | 18:13 |
| laurenceurhegyi | - we know how to build it | 18:13 |
| laurenceurhegyi | - we can reproduce it | 18:13 |
| laurenceurhegyi | - we know what it does | 18:13 |
| laurenceurhegyi | - it does what it is supposed to do | 18:13 |
| laurenceurhegyi | - we can update it and be confident it will not break or regress | 18:13 |
| laurenceurhegyi | But they are, of course, not defined metrics. Not yet, anyway. | 18:13 |
| AlisonChaiken | Assuredly testing plays a major role. | 18:14 |
| AlisonChaiken | Off to the office. BBL. | 18:15 |
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| laurenceurhegyi | Absolutely it does. One of the key things we have focused on when creating the 'system structure' which ChrisPolin linked to above is how to provide a traceable link from requirements, through to tests, through to the code itself (and details on who merged the code, when and why), through to deployment (which we actually need to add to that diagram). | 18:39 |
| laurenceurhegyi | If you have some time, we welcome all feedback on the System Structure. | 18:40 |
| laurenceurhegyi | Anyway, it's 18:40 here, so I'm off home now. Thanks! | 18:40 |
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| AlisonChaiken | Very good, I forwarded the link to the System Structure to the manager who's in charge of Functional Safety, and will have a look myself. | 18:44 |
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| rjek | http://theoatmeal.com/comics/trust | 21:09 |
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