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| gavinlai | I will chair today's meeting because szlin may not attend | 09:00 |
|---|---|---|
| gavinlai | #startmeeting CIP IRC weekly meeting | 09:00 |
| brlogger | Meeting started Thu Jun 13 09:00:23 2019 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is gavinlai. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 09:00 |
| brlogger | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 09:00 |
| brlogger | The meeting name has been set to 'cip_irc_weekly_meeting' | 09:00 |
| *** brlogger changes topic to " (Meeting topic: CIP IRC weekly meeting)" | 09:00 | |
| patersonc | Mornin | 09:00 |
| gavinlai | #topic rollcall | 09:00 |
| *** brlogger changes topic to "rollcall (Meeting topic: CIP IRC weekly meeting)" | 09:00 | |
| sangorrin | hi | 09:00 |
| gavinlai | please say hi if you're here | 09:00 |
| pave1 | hi | 09:00 |
| vidda | hi | 09:00 |
| iwamatsu | hi | 09:00 |
| mungaip[m] | hi | 09:00 |
| fujita[m] | hi | 09:00 |
| patersonc | hi | 09:00 |
| gavinlai | #topic AI review | 09:01 |
| *** brlogger changes topic to "AI review (Meeting topic: CIP IRC weekly meeting)" | 09:01 | |
| gavinlai | 1. send investigating email for kernel-testing lab to cip-dev - patersonc | 09:01 |
| gavinlai | #link https://lists.cip-project.org/pipermail/cip-dev/2019-June/002461.html | 09:01 |
| patersonc | Sorry, no updates from me. I'm waiting for some internal discussions first... | 09:02 |
| gavinlai | I will keep this action item :) | 09:02 |
| gavinlai | #action send investigating email for kernel-testing lab to cip-dev - patersonc | 09:02 |
| gavinlai | 2. Provide the script for CIP kernel config collection - bwh | 09:02 |
| gavinlai | bwh: (wave | 09:03 |
| pave1 | bwh did not say hi in the rollcall. | 09:03 |
| gavinlai | I will keep this action item | 09:03 |
| gavinlai | #action Provide the script for CIP kernel config collection - bwh | 09:03 |
| gavinlai | 3. Provide the plan about next cip-rt kernel release - szlin | 09:03 |
| gavinlai | szlin have already reported to TSC to look for a maintainer | 09:04 |
| gavinlai | szlin will list some questions to ask Daniel wagner | 09:04 |
| gavinlai | #action list some questions to ask Daniel wagner - szlin | 09:04 |
| gavinlai | #topic Kernel maintenance updates | 09:05 |
| *** brlogger changes topic to "Kernel maintenance updates (Meeting topic: CIP IRC weekly meeting)" | 09:05 | |
| pave1 | So... I reviewed 4.19.49 and 4.19.50. | 09:05 |
| pave1 | I'm starting to create a list of directories that need not be reviewed. It will go to the lists eventually. | 09:06 |
| pave1 | I have some questions, such as "is anyone using btrfs -- do we need to review it"? | 09:06 |
| iwamatsu | I reviewed 4.4.160 and stable-rc in stable@kernel.org. I'm sending some review and patches. | 09:06 |
| gavinlai | cool, thanks | 09:07 |
| iwamatsu | pave1: we do not use btrfs, and not target. | 09:07 |
| gavinlai | how to finalize the list? | 09:08 |
| iwamatsu | I think we can ignore commit of btrfs . | 09:08 |
| iwamatsu | we manage review list in https://gitlab.com/cip-project/cip-kernel/lts-commit-list/ | 09:08 |
| pave1 | I think we can ignore btrfs, too. | 09:09 |
| pave1 | Do we only care about configurations we have collected, or do we also support "hmm, someone is going to enable this config option"? | 09:09 |
| gavinlai | by request I guess? | 09:11 |
| fujita[m] | I think it needs similar steps as CIP core | 09:11 |
| iwamatsu | I think we need to list the features we can ignore, and we ask about list in cip-dev or other. | 09:11 |
| fujita[m] | propose -> vote -> decide | 09:11 |
| gavinlai | agree | 09:11 |
| iwamatsu | fujita[m]: +1 | 09:11 |
| pave1 | iwamatsu: Agreed. I'll start collecting paths we can ignore. | 09:12 |
| gavinlai | pave1: thanks | 09:12 |
| iwamatsu | pave1: ok, thanks | 09:12 |
| pave1 | There's some stuff we definitely can ignore (s390). I'll ask about stuff that is not completely clear. (btrfs? isofs?) | 09:12 |
| gavinlai | any other update? | 09:13 |
| gavinlai | #topic Kernel testing | 09:13 |
| *** brlogger changes topic to "Kernel testing (Meeting topic: CIP IRC weekly meeting)" | 09:13 | |
| iwamatsu | Also, I think that list will probably be a feature supported by the CIP kernel. | 09:13 |
| patersonc | Hello | 09:14 |
| patersonc | The LAVA master has been updated to the latest version in CIP's lava-docker repository. | 09:15 |
| patersonc | There were some issues and a small amount of recent test data was lost (sorry iwamatsu). | 09:15 |
| patersonc | We've now added some scripts to make the process full-proof for next time (famous last words). | 09:15 |
| patersonc | I've requested direct access to the server so we can do this ourselves in future, which should make it easier. | 09:15 |
| patersonc | When we get access we'll probably start trying to stick to a published update schedule so that users know in advance of any downtime. | 09:15 |
| patersonc | Setting up lab-cip-mentor is almost complete. Just waiting on the LAVA master's key to be shared with Mentor. | 09:15 |
| patersonc | I've managed to find time this week to work on the GitLab CI Kernel builds. I'll push everything to cip-playground when ready for review. | 09:15 |
| patersonc | Could someone make me a moderator/admin on our linux-cip GitLab? I'll need access to setup the GitLab CI. | 09:15 |
| iwamatsu | patersonc: No problem. | 09:15 |
| iwamatsu | SZlin is one of owner. | 09:16 |
| patersonc | Does anyone have owner access for linux-cip? | 09:16 |
| patersonc | Okay. I'll ask szlin then. Thanks | 09:17 |
| patersonc | For OSS-J, I'm thinking about holding a quick meeting on the 15th - the Monday before the event. This will be at the same location as the CIP Core meetings. | 09:17 |
| patersonc | Is anyone interested in a CIP testing specific meeting? | 09:17 |
| sangorrin | me | 09:18 |
| iwamatsu | hm, toscalix is ower yet. I think we remove him from owner . | 09:18 |
| patersonc | I guessed you ;) | 09:18 |
| patersonc | iwamatsu: Probably a good idea. There are probably lots of things Agustin is still owner of ;) | 09:18 |
| iwamatsu | I am interesting it. | 09:18 |
| patersonc | laurence-, do you want to take over access from Agustin? | 09:19 |
| patersonc | Thanks iwamatsu | 09:19 |
| *** vidda has quit IRC | 09:20 | |
| patersonc | I'll start planning. | 09:20 |
| patersonc | That's it from me, unless there are any questions? | 09:20 |
| gavinlai | patersonc: thanks | 09:20 |
| iwamatsu | patersonc: Thanks. | 09:20 |
| gavinlai | #topic CIP Core | 09:20 |
| *** brlogger changes topic to "CIP Core (Meeting topic: CIP IRC weekly meeting)" | 09:20 | |
| sangorrin | Deby's gitlab-ci.yml is now working | 09:21 |
| sangorrin | About Isar, I sent a merge request for iwg20m | 09:21 |
| sangorrin | https://gitlab.com/cip-project/cip-core/isar-cip-core/merge_requests | 09:21 |
| sangorrin | that's all | 09:22 |
| pave1 | I understand there's cip core meeting on zoom | 09:22 |
| pave1 | at june 18. | 09:22 |
| sangorrin | Hayashi-san sent a doodle I think | 09:22 |
| pave1 | Yep. I wanted to ask: | 09:22 |
| pave1 | Does it make sense for me to join it if time permits? | 09:22 |
| sangorrin | probably not much | 09:23 |
| pave1 | Ok. | 09:23 |
| gavinlai | :) | 09:23 |
| gavinlai | next topic? | 09:23 |
| gavinlai | #topic Software update | 09:24 |
| *** brlogger changes topic to "Software update (Meeting topic: CIP IRC weekly meeting)" | 09:24 | |
| sangorrin | We have a new branch in isar-cip-core (storm/swupdate) | 09:24 |
| sangorrin | there we have recipes for u-boot, swupdate, and some scripts | 09:24 |
| sangorrin | we will build up on that repository | 09:24 |
| gavinlai | sangorrin: thanks | 09:25 |
| gavinlai | any comments? | 09:25 |
| gavinlai | #topic AOB | 09:26 |
| *** brlogger changes topic to "AOB (Meeting topic: CIP IRC weekly meeting)" | 09:26 | |
| pave1 | I wanted to ask about realtime. | 09:26 |
| pave1 | I took a look at patches; they are scary (8000 lines), but not _that_ scary. | 09:26 |
| pave1 | Is someone using realtime capabilities? | 09:27 |
| pave1 | If so, on what hardware? | 09:27 |
| sangorrin | yes | 09:27 |
| sangorrin | on x86_64 and ARM32 | 09:27 |
| pave1 | Are there special configs for x86-64 (like this board, with SMM disabled?) | 09:27 |
| sangorrin | in isar-cip-core you can see rt configs | 09:28 |
| pave1 | Ok. | 09:28 |
| pave1 | Are you running tests of the realtime latencies? | 09:28 |
| sangorrin | https://gitlab.com/cip-project/cip-core/isar-cip-core/blob/next/recipes-kernel/linux/files/preempt-rt.cfg | 09:28 |
| sangorrin | yes | 09:28 |
| sangorrin | rt-tests | 09:28 |
| sangorrin | Daniel Wagner also created new tests and a test environment using kexec to get crash dumps | 09:29 |
| pave1 | Aha, good. So if someone prepares kernel for you, you can make reasonably sure that it works ok? | 09:29 |
| pave1 | Because in my eyes preparing the kernel is not that hard, testing is :-). | 09:29 |
| sangorrin | well, with RT you never know. Sometimes bugs only manifest after 30 hours | 09:30 |
| pave1 | Yes, that's the scary thing about RT. | 09:30 |
| pave1 | That and fact that RT systems are often used for critical stuff. | 09:30 |
| patersonc | Daniel did start working on a RT test suite | 09:30 |
| patersonc | I'm not sure where he got to though | 09:30 |
| sangorrin | everything is explained on his github account | 09:31 |
| sangorrin | https://github.com/igaw | 09:31 |
| pave1 | Ok, thanks for the information. | 09:31 |
| sangorrin | for kernel maintainers: https://github.com/igaw/stable-rt-tools | 09:32 |
| pave1 | Are those preempt-rt configs used in production? If so, what kind of application? | 09:32 |
| iwamatsu | I heard that Daniel.W tested on test lab | 09:32 |
| sangorrin | his test tool: https://github.com/igaw/jitterdebugger | 09:32 |
| iwamatsu | We can use this, maybe | 09:33 |
| sangorrin | he also contributed to rt-tests recently | 09:33 |
| sangorrin | https://www.spinics.net/lists/linux-rt-users/ | 09:33 |
| iwamatsu | https://ci-rt.linutronix.de/RT-Test/ | 09:34 |
| sangorrin | if you can go to Linux Plumbers 2019 (portugal) they may hold an rt mini-conference | 09:35 |
| pave1 | sangorrin: I don't think I will be there. | 09:36 |
| sangorrin | iwamatsu: nice link, here is the code https://github.com/ci-rt/docs | 09:36 |
| pave1 | sangorrin: Are you actually using RT stuff in production? | 09:36 |
| sangorrin | yes, in many boards for many different systems | 09:37 |
| pave1 | sangorrin: What kind of applications is that? | 09:37 |
| sangorrin | control | 09:37 |
| gavinlai | pave1: something like this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PROFINET | 09:37 |
| gavinlai | I think we can discuss this after meeting :) | 09:38 |
| pave1 | Ok, thanks. | 09:38 |
| pave1 | gavinlai: agreed. | 09:38 |
| gavinlai | #endmeeting | 09:38 |
| brlogger | Meeting ended Thu Jun 13 09:38:48 2019 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 09:38 |
| brlogger | Minutes: https://irclogs.baserock.org/meetings/cip/2019/06/cip.2019-06-13-09.00.html | 09:38 |
| brlogger | Minutes (text): https://irclogs.baserock.org/meetings/cip/2019/06/cip.2019-06-13-09.00.txt | 09:38 |
| brlogger | Log: https://irclogs.baserock.org/meetings/cip/2019/06/cip.2019-06-13-09.00.log.html | 09:38 |
| *** brlogger changes topic to "Civil Infrastructure Platform Project. Find the logs at https://irclogs.baserock.org/cip/" | 09:38 | |
| sangorrin | thanks | 09:39 |
| iwamatsu | gavinlai: thanks | 09:39 |
| fujita[m] | gavinlai: thank you | 09:40 |
| pave1 | thanks | 09:40 |
| gavinlai | pave1: something needs acurate control | 09:40 |
| gavinlai | example robotic arm | 09:40 |
| pave1 | gavinlai: Ok. But in case linux fails there are still other backups? | 09:41 |
| sangorrin | yes | 09:41 |
| sangorrin | functional safety | 09:41 |
| pave1 | gavinlai: I mean, probably no backups needed for robot arm, but Linux is not controlling airplane engines? | 09:42 |
| sangorrin | well... | 09:42 |
| sangorrin | how do you know ;) | 09:42 |
| sangorrin | it depends on the airplane | 09:42 |
| sangorrin | or helicopter | 09:43 |
| pave1 | sangorrin: Actually... I know :-). I don't think Linux can pass https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DO-178B certification with reasonable effort. | 09:43 |
| pave1 | sangorrin: That should ban it from civilian, manned aircraft AFAICT :-) | 09:44 |
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| pave1 | Ok, thanks for all the info. | 09:45 |
| gavinlai | :) | 09:45 |
| sangorrin_ | think of reading sensors, calculating something and controlling some actuator in less than x milliseconds | 09:46 |
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| sangorrin_ | RT can give you latencies of less than 200 us. For application loops of 30 ms, Linux-rt is good enough. For critical stuff, you do need Spark or Ada or implement it on FPGA | 09:47 |
| pave1 | sangorrin: Yes, I can imagine that easily. But I also imagine Linux or hardware failing or missing a deadline once in a year, and would prefer not to cause next Chernobyl with misapplied kernel patch. | 09:48 |
| sangorrin_ | yeah, but there are redundant systems and many other machines providing functional safety | 09:49 |
| sangorrin_ | it's not like the whole thing is going to fail just because one machine fails | 09:49 |
| pave1 | Ok, good. I guess legislation (like do-178b) should prevent Linux from doing really bad stuff. | 09:49 |
| sangorrin_ | there is a Linux safety critical workgroup | 09:50 |
| sangorrin_ | https://www.linuxfoundation.org/press-release/2019/02/the-linux-foundation-launches-elisa-project-enabling-linux-in-safety-critical-systems/ | 09:51 |
| sangorrin_ | I think that CIP also wants to participate in that kind of thing | 09:52 |
| pave1 | Thanks for pointers. | 09:52 |
| sangorrin_ | You are welcome! | 09:53 |
| pave1 | So the stuff I seen (do-178b class B -- critical, but less critical than engines or flight controls; perhaps elevator trim) was really far away from where Linux could be used. | 09:54 |
| sangorrin_ | sure | 09:54 |
| sangorrin_ | probably it is used in stuff that is not that critical | 09:54 |
| pave1 | And for example Tesla scares me. "We have 2 CPUs so we are safe!". No, you are not with off the shelf CPU cores. And you need three. | 09:55 |
| pave1 | But I guess that is for legistlators to sort out. | 09:55 |
| sangorrin_ | yeah, functional safety is also important | 09:55 |
| pave1 | Important thing is that you are able to test changes. | 09:55 |
| sangorrin_ | when everything fails, you need to turn off safely | 09:56 |
| patersonc | There are some Renesas R-Car boxes with 4x 8-core CPUs, plus each CPU has 2x RT cores | 09:56 |
| patersonc | For automated driving etc. | 09:56 |
| pave1 | Ok, that's important difference from the aircraft. You can only turn off safely when parked. | 09:56 |
| sangorrin_ | yeah, well cars are inherently dangerous no matter what you do | 09:57 |
| pave1 | sangorrin_: Well, lets say that making them safe would make them slow and very expensive. | 09:59 |
| sangorrin_ | haha agreed | 10:00 |
| sangorrin_ | let's use bicycles :) | 10:00 |
| pave1 | :-) | 10:00 |
| pave1 | patersonc: I guess automated driving is going to be a lot of fun. So far it has bigger problems than single-event-upsets, but... | 10:02 |
| patersonc | Indeed | 10:03 |
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| pave1 | bye for now. | 11:47 |
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