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| paulsherwood | hi all | 09:26 |
|---|---|---|
| paulsherwood | ELCE Automotive Collaboration panel starting in 4 minutes | 09:26 |
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| jonathanmaw | paulsherwood: is there a livestream? | 09:28 |
| mkl | don't think so | 09:29 |
| * pedroalvarez waves | 09:29 | |
| * paulsherwood explains that he's never done a panel discussion before, the aim is to talk about how things actually happen in automotive projects | 09:30 | |
| * paulsherwood asks the panel to introduce themselves and explain recent experiences | 09:31 | |
| rjek | Sounds exciting! I too would be interested in a live stream :-/ | 09:31 |
| paulsherwood | Chris works for Microchip, doing USB, media systems. Highlight: managed to commit driver they have recently been working on into mainline Linux kernel - first time working with mainline | 09:32 |
| paulsherwood | Expectation is that it would be very difficult, but once they started talking to the upstream guys it was amazingly easy. Had mentoring from GregKH via LF | 09:33 |
| paulsherwood | Arthur works for Advanced Telematics Systems. Mostly deliver server side software but since joining GENIVI and AGL doing more client side. Getting involved in GDP and baselines, looking at Yocto meta-ivi builds. | 09:34 |
| paulsherwood | GENIVI and AGL are providing things their customers are interested in, following developments | 09:34 |
| paulsherwood | Frederico works for AW-Europe, working on Linux IVI systems. | 09:35 |
| paulsherwood | Recent experience submitting patches to ivi-layer-management, had great response, invited to join weekly meetings. It's been mostly good experiences so far, highlight is how well he's been received. | 09:35 |
| paulsherwood | Tom works for Codethink. Only been working on GENIVI for past 2 months, doing work on GDP. Bit out of date when he started, ben trying to make it easierr for more people like himself who don't have a dtrong background in Yocto to get involved | 09:36 |
| * paulsherwood invites participants in the room to flag high points, great things happening in collaborative software over couple of years? | 09:37 | |
| paulsherwood | Much more awareness of collaborative automotive over couple of years, but actual cooperation is still relatively low. Competing organisiations can talk about cooperating but businsess conflicts make it difficult. Commercial/industry problem not necessarily engineering | 09:39 |
| paulsherwood | Yesterday announced that real-time kernel extensions has a home which is great for automotive smaller ECUs | 09:40 |
| paulsherwood | Q: How do we stop auto industry reinventing the wheel? | 09:40 |
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| paulsherwood | Chris: OEMs aren't in the right mindset yet. Took a long time to convince his company that open-sourcing drivers is a good idea | 09:41 |
| paulsherwood | Done a lot of collaboration projects since opening their driver, so actual response from going open is very good | 09:41 |
| paulsherwood | Arthur: There are things like legal and engineering culture which take time to change. However if the open community builds the best auto software that we can then it'll provide incentive and encourage OEMs to not rewrite that themselves. We need to produce high quality software | 09:43 |
| paulsherwood | Top down approach/design by committee has failed so far. More bottom up engineering | 09:43 |
| paulsherwood | Frederico: Agrees with Arthur. If we want people to stop reinventing the wheel we need to produce quality results that they want to take. We do have some responsibility to try and change the culture, educate internally to help them understand the benefits e.g. less maintenance effort using open-source components | 09:44 |
| paulsherwood | It's any engineers role to help management understand the benefits | 09:45 |
| paulsherwood | Q; What's managements take on giving changes back to FOSS community? | 09:45 |
| paulsherwood | Tom: paulsherwood is my manager, we're contributing to any project we can. What he's seen in 2 months of discussion, if we can be open and provide info we need the word will spread | 09:46 |
| paulsherwood | Frederico: At local team level always had good support, easy to make case for collaboration/upstreaming. At higher level of corporation things are not so clear, but you need to make the effort. Doing open work can be good way of demonstrating technical skills | 09:47 |
| paulsherwood | Q: people who work for OEMs in the room - how do you see discussion on contributing back to OSS going? | 09:48 |
| paulsherwood | A: company doing service for OEM in Germany - have good position with engineering and now have agreement with management that they can do upstreaming, so don't need to worry about the source they create, don't have to bring forward for 2 years etc. | 09:49 |
| * paulsherwood asks Arthur how they ended up working openly for JLR | 09:49 | |
| paulsherwood | Arthur: The strategy there is very focused on open source, that's great for ATS. JLR don't want to reinvent the wheel, and other OEMs would receive benefit if they all collaborate | 09:50 |
| paulsherwood | Chris: Their code quality has improved since upstreaming their work | 09:51 |
| paulsherwood | Q: From an engineering point of view, how good is the code that we are doing in GENIVI and AGL? | 09:51 |
| paulsherwood | Chris: the quality is pretty good, lots of people doing code reviews, finding more bugs, quality will increase by this | 09:52 |
| paulsherwood | Arthur: Lots of dimensions to quality. Engineers know how to write C/C++. Where quality slips is that engineers don't know how to get involved with open-source projects, can write good code but don't know how to get their code out their and cooperate so much | 09:53 |
| paulsherwood | Frederico: code is good, but sometimes it seems that it isn't a good idea to take components and use them in products | 09:54 |
| paulsherwood | Tom: Seen a few cases where people don't know current state of project or who maintaners are, ends up with people working on wrong patch sets etc. Would be good to move beyond just mailing lists to more official reviewing | 09:55 |
| paulsherwood | Luc: thinks we're in a fairy land. Working at OEM, engineers working on microcontrollers are incapable of learning, not at phase for upstreaming at all | 09:55 |
| paulsherwood | Q for Luc: Is code quality good? | 09:55 |
| paulsherwood | Luc: the bits I produce gets buried under the carpet, bangs head against Windows PC all day. Sees a lot of MCU devs, very common in automotive. Joined LF but didn't hire Linux guys, just got current engs trying to do Linux | 09:57 |
| * paulsherwood thinks automotive in general has a series of war room type projects and by the time you look at that war room, rushing to get the SW stable, upstreaming is the last thing you're thinking about | 09:58 | |
| * paulsherwood repeats point made by panel. If we work in open, do good work and create enough momentum, then production projects might take notice and use what we do | 10:00 | |
| paulsherwood | Jeremiah: I'll take devil's advocate. OEMs might look at FOSS and think it'll never meet thir embedded requirements, not the right quality that they expect. | 10:00 |
| paulsherwood | Luc: OEMs don't know how to use FOSS, which is why they think this | 10:01 |
| toscalix | Question for the panel: what needs to happen in the coming 2-3 months in GENIVI / AGL to boost productivity and see more/better code? | 10:03 |
| paulsherwood | Audience: Auto industry thinks it is special and has different needs. This has happened many times in the past with other industries and they've all had to transition. Auto needs to see this to make the change | 10:03 |
| paulsherwood | Aerospace also shares this view and seeing similar problems. FOSS might not be same quality but it's improving so quickly | 10:04 |
| paulsherwood | If FOSS can't certify itself it'll be difficult for people to take | 10:04 |
| paulsherwood | Q: could FOSS engineers have helped prevent the VW situation? | 10:05 |
| paulsherwood | It's a requirement from management | 10:06 |
| paulsherwood | With VW, the regulators could not find this - Jeremiah | 10:08 |
| paulsherwood | Walt disagrees | 10:08 |
| paulsherwood | If using GPLv3 no one else would see that source code, so FOSS wouldn't help | 10:09 |
| paulsherwood | toscalix: we've asked your question | 10:10 |
| paulsherwood | Tom: more contributors would help. Don't know direct answer to question, heading in the right direction though | 10:10 |
| paulsherwood | Frederico: Been good effort in last months in GDP, CI, Gerrit. Would be good to get new maintainers + contributors | 10:11 |
| paulsherwood | Need feedback on components, question over next few months. Will people pitch in? | 10:11 |
| paulsherwood | Arthur: Following AGL and GENIVI. As far as he understands there's no code reuse between them. 2 solutions based on Yocto, both building different layers. If they built the same his software could go to one upstream | 10:12 |
| paulsherwood | Peter Popov: not just issue of code quality. Code and opening your code is one part, but building community around your tech is bigger task. JLR's OSS tech centre does work on projects and opens it, but without community there's not a life for the software. These issues are here for both AGL and GENIVI. CarPlay and Google auto achieved this very fast | 10:14 |
| paulsherwood | Luc: Apparently in UI dept of OEM he's working at, they said they're not afraid of Apple of Google | 10:15 |
| paulsherwood | paulsherwood: asks how can we increase our productivity? | 10:15 |
| paulsherwood | Arthur: build common base layer | 10:15 |
| paulsherwood | Chris: Agrees with Arthur's point. | 10:15 |
| paulsherwood | paulsherwood: need to get more contribution, can only increase productivity of same engs so far | 10:16 |
| paulsherwood | Audience: make community even smaller by just making automotive specific components | 10:16 |
| paulsherwood | Media manager is great example of a component which can increase the community, it can be used outside automotive | 10:16 |
| paulsherwood | We need to target the automotive specific components though, otherwise no one else will solve these problems for us | 10:17 |
| paulsherwood | The question is: not what can the community do for you, but what can you do for the community? | 10:18 |
| paulsherwood | Q: how do you deal with real time requirements? | 10:18 |
| paulsherwood | paulsherwood: remember that your requirements are probably not special. If you have a problem e.g. real time, then help make Linux solve that problem because others will be facing it also, instead of reinventing | 10:19 |
| paulsherwood | Audience: working on project for OSDL, doing ASIL open software, working with partners there | 10:22 |
| paulsherwood | Challenge is that they don't have V-model approach | 10:22 |
| paulsherwood | Chris: productivity can be increased by the way you communicate inside the community. They used to use svn, when they started working with kernel community they moved to git | 10:23 |
| paulsherwood | When using such tools you incease your collaboration. They have distributed workers and by using these tools they can communicate much better and increase code review/quality | 10:24 |
| paulsherwood | paulsherwood: we could all increase our productivity by stopping using vcs other than git | 10:24 |
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| paulsherwood | Thanks to all who participated, and to Marc for typing as me throughout :) | 11:00 |
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| toscalix | paulsherwood: thanks | 11:22 |
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| ToxicGumbo-work | paulsherwood: Greatly appreciate your transcription. Thank you. | 14:25 |
| paulsherwood | np | 14:27 |
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| paulsherwood | http://genivi.phanfare.com/7037612 | 14:52 |
| paulsherwood | omg... http://genivi.phanfare.com/7037612#imageID=247809945 :/ | 14:53 |
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| ToxicGumbo-work | "The aim will be to involve actual engineers in the discussion" | 14:56 |
| ToxicGumbo-work | ^ There's a joke in there somewhere ;-) | 14:56 |
| paulsherwood | :) | 14:57 |
| ToxicGumbo-work | Great job, all. Looks solid. | 14:57 |
| ToxicGumbo-work | paulsherwood, that's a great photo. I was in a conference planning meeting with Jon Maddog Hall and asked him a few days later for a photo we took together. | 14:58 |
| ToxicGumbo-work | The one he sent was entirely different | 14:58 |
| ToxicGumbo-work | It was just me from across the room making a strange expression at the moment | 14:59 |
| ToxicGumbo-work | C'est la vie | 14:59 |
| paulsherwood | lol | 14:59 |
| rjek | paulsherwood: THE GOGGLES. THEY DO NOTHING. | 14:59 |
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| jlrmagnus | Morning | 16:02 |
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| * steve_l was hoping to see pictures of hover-board re-enactments in the session pictures, although was glad to see it was well attended | 17:32 | |
| rjek | :) | 17:35 |
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| static | Does AGL have an image for cubox-i or raspberry pi? or is something you have to use build scripts for | 17:44 |
| static | im interested in checking it out | 17:45 |
| static | i stumbled across it while looking to build a carpc | 17:46 |
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