IRC logs for #baserock for Thursday, 2014-12-04

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jjardonKinnison: insist? I only sent patches that didn't brake any system in current definitions and were reviewed and accepted02:56
jjardonI asked for a system that its currently broken with thr new systemd so I can test in case I have some time: nothing is there yet02:57
jjardonI asked (2 times) for feedback to adopt how coreos configure the network, so we do not need to parse any custom configuration in a script: no reply02:59
jjardonAlso, i can not read all the conversations in this channel,So if someone can write an email with the current issues he has with the network 03:01
jjardonI think it would be the best taking in account baserock  doesn't have infrastructure to send bug reports yet03:03
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radiofreeso if you use net.ifname=0 and a change the systemd network config to match on et* everything is back to normal07:56
radiofreeso, for systems that need eth0, add net.ifname=0 and adjust your /etc/systemd/network/*.network unit accordingly07:57
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persiaradiofree: Shouldn't we fix it so that none of the systems with systemd need eth0?  I got lost trying to sort out which systems were which, but I don't think trying to cause legacy behaviour is the ideal solution.10:13
jmacsWe've come across a lot of software this week that relies on eth0.10:14
persiaYes, but it has to be patched anyway.  Personally, I usually find most development teams happy to receive compatibility patches when their dependencies change in incompatible ways.10:15
* persia has seen one project go from 6 years dormant to active development again as a result of such a patch.10:16
persiaThat said, I do agree that it is annoying for those of us experiencing the pain, but just think about how much everyone else in the world will appreciate the work of making the problems go away :)10:16
radiofreepersia: that would be the idea situation yes10:24
radiofrees/idea/ideal10:24
* persia is an optimist :)10:24
radiofreeat least, for now, you can use net.ifname=010:24
paulsher1oodradiofree: where would that patch go?10:28
pedroalvarezpaulsher1ood: sounds like a kernel arg10:29
persiaIt's two things: 1) kernel arg (in clusters), and 2) adjustments to the systemd network unit (I don't know what provides this)10:30
pedroalvarez2) networkd conf provided by systemd chunk10:30
persiaRIght then, so changes to clusters and systemd chunk.10:31
radiofreekernel arg10:32
pedroalvarezthe thing is that I like the idea of persistent network device names, but sounds like now they are unpredictable10:32
radiofree._o10:33
persiapedroalvarez: The aren't: they are very predictable.  The problem is that the predictability depends on the environment of the system, so that we need to be cleverer about generalising "the first network adaptor" for arbitrary system constructions.10:33
radiofreethe whole point of them is that they are predictable pedroalvarez10:34
radiofreefor example, if you had two wlan devices using the old convention, it's entirely possible for them to change between wlan0 and wlan110:35
radiofreewhich means your lovingly handcraft iptables rules won't work10:35
pedroalvarezI understand that, that's the reason why I like it10:35
pedroalvarezas persia said, the names now depend on the environment of the system. From my point of view when configuring, you don't really know what name is going to have the ethernet device10:37
persiaradiofree: I have hardware where wireless ends up ethN, with N incrementing on each reboot.10:37
radiofreepedroalvarez: the current setup works, ethernet devices are en*10:38
persiapedroalvarez: That is also true with eth*: people just pretend it isn't.10:38
pedroalvarezit was easier to pretend, at leaset10:38
pedroalvarezleast*10:38
radiofreepedroalvarez: so the quickest solution is, when you have your systems that absolutely need it to be eth0, use net.ifname=0, and update the configuration script to write the correct systemd unit10:39
pedroalvareznow if I deploy to openstack, eth0, to kvm  ens3, to baremetal...?10:39
radiofreei don't think using language like "x insisted on this" is going to help matters much10:40
persiapedroalvarez: That you are getting "eth0" from OpenStack indicates something odd is happening.  It would be interesting to know how that emerged from the policy.10:40
radiofreeunless insisted on is part of the nomenclature of baserock for a patch merge.... "james insisted on their being an armv7 hard float rootfs adding to the release"10:40
persiaradiofree: I think "insisted" is one of the rhetorical tricks that it is hard to remove from one's communication patterns, and is best ignored, or understood to be an expression of the writer's frustration.10:44
persiaPersonally, I think out limited test infrastructure is to blame for the current problems, rather than either the upstream code, the submitter of the definitions patch (who did spend some time trying to sort things, and has promised a follow-up patch for some more fixups), or the reviewers (all of whom identified some issues that needed to be resolved for the new order, yet advocated merge anyway).10:46
petefothCurrent text of http://wiki.baserock.org/guides/upgrade-trove/ says to use the command ‘morph deploy --upgrade trove.baserock.org-upgrade.morph gbo.VERSION_LABEL=2014-05-29’. Can i just replace ‘deploy —upgrade’ with ‘upgrade’ in that command, or is the incantation different in orher ways?10:58
* radiofree wasn't aware there was an upgrade command10:59
petefothsorry that shoudl be ‘morph deploy....'10:59
ssam2petefoth: yes, please replace with `morph upgrade`11:01
ssam2there's no difference in functionality11:01
petefothssam2: just double checking - the rest of that command loine is unchanged?11:01
ssam2petefoth: yes11:01
radiofreemorph upgrade is "morph deploy --upgrade" then?11:01
ssam2radiofree: yes11:01
ssam2at the timewe introduced 'morph deploy --upgrade', some people expressed that they'd prefer it to be 'morph upgrade', and I later added it11:01
petefothradiofree: and morph deploy —upgrade is now deprecated11:02
radiofreedoes your mac insist on changing things to unicode petefoth? :)11:03
petefothradiofree: not the Mac, it’s the Colloquy irc client - I’ll try and find the setting to turn that off11:03
* petefoth discovers Colloquy’s ‘Default encoding’ parameter, and restarts the app11:07
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* petefoth discovers that changing Colloquy’s ‘Default encoding’ parameter to ASCII doesn’t stop it converting various characters to unicode :(11:11
persiapetefoth: You want to set the character set back to UTF-8, but adjust the input filter.  Unfortuantely it has been so many years since I used Colloquy that I can't remember the menu sequence.11:12
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richard_mawpedroalvarez: you said something about installer.py yesterday?11:24
* richard_maw is skimming backscroll11:24
pedroalvarezyup11:25
pedroalvarezregarding your suggestion about puting it into a chunk11:25
richard_mawwhy do you want it in all systems?11:26
petefothpersia: thanks for the tip,but I can’t find any reference to input filter in the preferences or the help. I’lllive with it for now11:27
pedroalvarezrichard_maw: I didn't like the idea of  creating a chunk for it. But I ended up thinking that it could be a good idea but if the installer is in the systems always, so we don't have to create extra systems to build an installer system11:28
* petefoth discovers the Keyboard | Text | 'USe smart quotes and dashes' setting in System Preferences, and turns it off :)11:29
petefoth---- '' " :)11:29
persiapetefoth: That would be it :)11:29
richard_mawI'd argue that this is why we should be attempting to reduce the amount of overhead in defining a system, but I can understand wanting to avoid adding more systems.11:29
petefothradiofree: it used to, now it doesn't :)11:30
persiaI like the idea of the installer being a system, because it means I can define a cluster with or without the installer, for the same payload.11:30
persiaAlthough on the other hand, if the installer could be part of a write extension, that makes it even easier (albeit with some maintenance cost)11:31
richard_mawpedroalvarez: if we can come up with at least 1 use-case where a system not involved in pxeboot imaging would find it useful, then I wouldn't mind doing it that way.11:31
persiaA system has no network, and is installed by a technician booting from USB.11:32
persiaA system has slow/expensive network, and is upgraded by attaching USB at a service station every three months11:32
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richard_mawthe issue with having another system defined is that when deps change it's another defined system that needs to be corrected (which was one of the reasons for the runtime-depends patch)11:34
pedroalvarezbut also, if I define another system for this, then it will be smaller11:36
pedroalvarezbuild-essential, core morph-uitls and bsp11:36
richard_mawyep11:36
pedroalvarezI'll go with dfining a different system, since the only use case for the installer script is to create installer systems (pxboot, usb, iso...)11:38
persiaCan we do ISO?  I didn't think we had the necessary EL_TORITO magic11:41
richard_mawnot yet11:41
pedroalvarezhehe, el torito11:41
rjekISO install would be nice11:41
persiaHeh.  Thank you for the correction.11:41
persiarjek: Preferable to USB, or equivalent, to you?11:42
rjekI think it's a pretty well-understood problem to make an ISO image that can also be written to a USB stick.  Debian have lots of command line tools for doing it.11:42
rjekpersia: It's often easier to boot a "CD" in virtual machines than a USB stick image, IME11:42
persiarjek: I suppose, although if I'm dealing with a VM, wouldn't I just use the virtualbox, libvirt, kvm, or openstack write extensions?11:43
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rjekHow do you do that with the image file you just downloaded from baserock.org to get started?11:44
rjekWhat if your dev environment is VMware, or Parellels?11:44
rjek(Or, terror it be, Microsoft VirtualPC)11:45
persiaIf you're downloading, it's a RAW image, so works for both of those.  I'm not sure why I'd want to wrap the image in an "installer": that's just extra cycles to copy data.11:45
* persia doesn't know if VirtualPC supports RAW, but expects it does.11:45
rjekDownload's probably smaller and more flexible :)11:45
persiaNot smaller, given the way the installer is implemented.11:45
persiaAnd not any more flexible, as it just copies the image to the target.11:45
rjekFlexible, one hopes, as you get to choose file system and partition layout11:46
persiaA different installer may have the properties you mention, but install-time modification goes against the Baserock model, as it encourages snowflakes.11:46
rjekdeveloper's machines, where one might use an installer, are snowflakes.11:46
persiarjek: For that, you want to define a cluster with the described properties.11:46
persiarjek: The primary expected use case for the installer is a large room full of racks full of servers, not developer machines.11:47
persiaFor a dev VM, the dev manages their own cluster, with their custom system definition, rebased frequently, and runs upgrade.11:47
rjekSounds like a job for Symantec's multicast IP Ghost product!11:47
persiaFirst time install, the default image is fine.11:47
persiarjek: If someone wanted that, they could write a write extension.  As far as I know, current efforts are to support OpenStack Ironic and IPMI-based installs.11:48
rjekWe really shoudn't be enabling IPMI fanatics.11:48
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persiaAnd the USB install thing is a free bonus side effect, which makes me happy, but doesn't seem to be the main thrust of development.11:48
persiaI refuse to say we should not do anything that fails to break other things.  Flexibility is good.11:49
persiaIf the IPMI fanatics happen to want to contribute to Baserock, that is a win for Baserock.11:49
persiaIf the code bitrots, then there wasn't sufficient interest, so we can remove it later.11:50
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DavePageIs there a difference between IPMI-based installs and PXE-based installs? I thought IPMI was used to tell a server to PXE boot.11:56
rjekDavePage: IPMI has hideous extensions to let you "mount" a "CD" image over the network to boot from and things.11:56
DavePagerjek: Ooh shiny11:56
persiaDavePage: As I understand the code, I think IPMI is used to cause a PXE boot of an image containing an installer, but I may not have the right model11:56
rjekThis is for people who hate standards.11:56
DavePageWell, means you don't need a PXE server :)11:57
persiaCode landed recently to launch a PXE server in one's dev environment at the moment one needed one.11:57
rjek(PXE being an open standard that consists of DHCP and then TFTP to fetch a payload, PXE providing a BIOS extension API for networking)11:57
rjekThere's no such thing as a PXE server :)11:57
persiaDoesn't help with really complicated networks, but handles the simple case, and there is probably already a TFTP server in the complex case.11:58
rjekPXE is an API run on the machine to provide networking access to real-mode code11:58
persiarjek: Fine.  It launches a DHCP server and a TFTP server.11:58
persiawhich combination I intend to conflate in the future by calling it a "PXE server"11:58
rjekFor Linux, you just TFTP load pxelinux, which uses the PXE API to fetch a config file that describes what kernel and initrd to fetch11:58
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rjekI think pxelinux lets you fetch via HTTP these days too11:59
rjekpersia: We used to just call them netboot servers, given since the dawn of time it's always been BOOTP/DHCP and TFTP :)11:59
persiaPerhaps.  the code I saw doesn't do it that way.  You can look at the relevant commits if you want real information, rather than excerpts from my faulty memory.12:00
persiarjek: Yep.  But "netboot server" sounds old-school, and "PXE server" sounds new and cool.  Kinda like how SGML was unacceptable as a data transmission format, and XML was lauded as the best thing since sliced bread.12:00
rjekpxelinux tries to fetch several files, based on MAC address prefixes, and then finally a default one12:01
rjek"old school" == "reliable and well-understood" ;-)12:01
persiaIf only most flacks agreed with you.  It would make my life easier :)12:02
rjek"new school" reminds me of the "new math", wonderfully satirised by Tom Lehrer.12:02
rjek"You should do it this way, because the approach works in bases you'll never use!"12:02
* persia decides not to populate the irc log more, and goes off to deride things somewhere else12:04
bashrcin morph files for the linux kernel do you only need to specify a commit without the branch name?12:26
bashrcalso what does "unpetrify-ref" mean?12:27
radiofreeit tells you what the branch the ref exists in12:32
radiofreeor it might not12:32
radiofreeyou can have a branch name/tag as the ref though12:33
bashrcok. Wouldn't that field be better described as "branch"?12:33
franredjmac, regarding to your lorry, could https://github.com/abh/ntppool the source code repository that they use for making the tarball?13:13
franredjmacs, ^^13:14
jmacsfranred: Oh, I didn't realise that existed13:14
ssam2bashrc: yes, and I think we'll be changing the format of definitions soon to avoid the outdated 'unpetrify-ref' field13:14
jmacsfranred: It's not the same as the NTP tarballs though - what's the difference between ntp and ntppool?13:15
franredjmacs, I got both from this page: http://www.ntp.org/  [tarball] http://support.ntp.org/bin/view/Main/SoftwareDownloads  [repo]  http://www.pool.ntp.org/en/13:17
franredmaybe they are different projects13:18
franredjmacs, I think the repo is here: http://support.ntp.org/bin/view/Main/SoftwareDevelopment13:20
jmacsfranred: Indeed it is - but it's BitKeeper13:20
franred:(13:20
petefothAre there any restrictions on the VERSION_LABEL parameter for morph help deploy? Are spaces allowed?13:20
richard_mawpetefoth: morph won't complain, but system-version-manager list may be ambiguous to parse13:21
richard_mawso cycle.sh may have problems, since it's currently the only thing that parses the output of svm list13:21
petefothso maybe we should recommend no spaces13:22
petefoth?13:22
richard_mawwe definitely need to ban / characters in it13:23
richard_mawand \0, as you could embed that in the yaml13:23
richard_mawhm no13:23
franredjmacs, sorry for the noise, I've given you a +1 to merge the lorry13:23
richard_mawactually \0 would get truncated, since it goes in the environment13:23
jmacsfranred: Cool, cheers.13:23
ssam2petefoth: I'd recommend just using alphanumeric characters and -13:23
ssam2if we advise users of this and they use funny characters, they get to keep the pieces13:24
richard_mawas for whitespace, I'd prefer that we added a machine parsable output option to system-version-manager and made cycle.sh use that instead13:24
pedroalvarezI like also "."13:24
richard_mawpedroalvarez: good point, "." and ".." aren't possible13:24
petefothssam2: can I use that phrase in the documnentation ?13:24
richard_mawunless we encode the version labels in the write extension13:25
ssam2I think so :)13:25
petefothalpha-numerics and <hyphen> characters only shall be recommended!13:25
richard_mawyep, since people write shell scripts and shell does the wrong thing by default13:26
* petefoth constrains himself to "should contain only alpha-numeric characters and the '-' (hyphen) character"13:27
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bashrc_ssam2: to increase the chances of community engagement it may be a good idea to avoid too much esoteric terminology (like "unpetrify")13:53
bashrc_ is now known as bashrc13:53
ssam2bashrc_: I think we're all on board the 'avoid inventing new terms' boat now :)13:54
ssam2although I don't think this will solve all our problems, as overloading existing terms can also create confusion13:55
ssam2but we will be moving to remove stuff like 'unpetrify'13:55
bashrctrue, although I'm not suggesting that the terminology always needs to be completely bland and generic13:55
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ssam2things were looking really good for actually finishing off importing Rails today14:01
ssam2until ...14:01
ssam2UnicodeDecodeError: 'unicodeescape' codec can't decode bytes in position 15-16: truncated \uXXXX escape14:01
ssam2oh, actually I know the problemn14:02
ssam2for an unrelated reason my 'PS1' environment variable has colour escapes codes in it now14:03
DavePageUnicodedecodedecodecodecodecode14:03
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ssam2and seems nobody else using Baserock has ever done that. 'morph deploy' breaks in such a case!14:04
ssam2actually, it's not the colour codes but the sequence '\u' that breaks it.14:09
ssam2json.dumps('\u', encoding='unicode-escape') causes the same problem14:09
petefothcan rawdisk.write be used to upgrade a vm that was deployed using a different write extension, such as kvm, vbox-ssh and/or openstack?14:09
ssam2I have no idea how to fix this to be honest.14:09
pedroalvarezso, I'd like to create a repo to put the installer script. I think that baserock/baserock/installer-scripts  would be ok to match with the name of the initramfs-scripts one14:09
ssam2seems OK14:10
ssam2I worry that we have too many repos, and wonder if it might be nicer to have a 'system-tools' repo that included the installer, plus tbdiff and system-version-manager14:10
ssam2but that's creating extra work for you14:11
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pedroalvarezbut you are probably right14:11
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petefothNow it's a bit quieter, I'll try again :) can rawdisk.write be used to upgrade a vm that was deployed using a different write extension, such as kvm, vbox-ssh and/or openstack?14:19
pedroalvarezI woudn't say that is possible because then we will have to document it and it doesn't sound easy to do14:20
petefothpedroalvarez: OK. So I'll say it can be used to upgrade a system that was deployed as a raw disk image14:21
pedroalvarezIt can be used to upgrade raw disk images14:22
petefothpedroalvarez: is that different to what I just wrote?14:22
petefothif the raw disk image we are upgradng is perhaps not a Baserock system but a disk that is *used* by a system?14:23
* pedroalvarez is not being fast at writing today14:24
pedroalvarezI guess that "to upgrade a system that was deployed as a raw disk image" can cause confusion.14:24
pedroalvarezyou can deploy a system as a rawdisk, and then upload it to Openstack, or run it on virt-manager14:25
pedroalvarezthey were deployed as a rawdisk image, but rawdisk.write extension only allows you to upgrade a rawdisk image14:26
pedroalvarezarg.. english..14:26
pedroalvarezpetefoth: you know what I mean?14:26
petefothpedroalvarez: so we can upgrade the ram disk image then deploy that upgraded raw disk image (using morph deploy) to OpenStack or libvirt or vbox? 14:28
* petefoth is beginning to get the picture14:28
pedroalvarezno, I think I screwed up your picture14:28
pedroalvarezsorry :(14:28
petefothcan we talk in 302 meeting room?14:29
petefothit's probably quicker than typing14:29
pedroalvarezI'll try to explain this to you later, I'm busy at the moment :)14:29
petefothpedroalvarez: OK give me ahout when t's convenient14:30
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radiofreeis there an install equivalent of cp -r * $DESTDIR/foo/ 16:02
richard_mawnot as far as I know16:03
radiofreeok, i'll explain in the commit message why i used cp then16:03
richard_mawyou might be able to run `find -mindepth 1 -depth -type f -exec install -D {} "$DESTDIR/foo/" ';'`, but cp -r is more easily comprehensible16:07
DavePageShould it be cp -ar ?16:08
radiofreei don't think i've ever used -a...16:10
richard_mawDavePage: -a implies -r16:13
richard_maw-a includes permissions16:13
DavePagerichard_maw: I see that now :)16:13
richard_mawthis has somehow reminded me of how bad rsync's command-line is sometimes. If you want to copy a file from one location to another, and the filename may have spaces or glob characters in, you need to both (-s, --protect-args) and to glob escape the target path!16:15
richard_maw--protect-args stops it interpreting the spaces as argument separators, ~ home substitution and $variable_substitution16:16
richard_mawbut it still globs!16:16
richard_mawit's stuff like this which makes me wonder whether posix specifying the set of characters allowed in a file name would actually be a good idea16:18
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ssam2jmac: did you ever fix the Gem certificates error you mentioned the other day?16:26
ssam2 Gem::RemoteFetcher::FetchError: SSL_connect returned=1 errno=0 state=SSLv3 read server certificate B: certificate verify failed (https://rubygems.org/gems/rake-10.4.2.gem)16:26
ssam2oh, update-ca-certificates16:27
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ssam2turns out the example I chose for the import tool tutorial is a crap example and the tool doesn't work that well for Rails16:57
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rdalewhat do you think is the problem with rails?16:57
ssam2rails itself imports fine, but to actually use it you need a fair few extra Gems which are considered optional dependencies17:00
ssam2(well, it doesn't import fine, I had to spend a whole section of the tutorial on how to fix up the corner cases, but it's not too bad)17:00
rdalebut you can get them from the Gemfile.lock file?17:00
ssam2at the moment the tool reads from the .gemspec file17:00
ssam2if you create a project with 'rails new foo' then you get a Gemfile, but not a .gemspec17:01
ssam2reading the Gemfile directly isn't a good idea in most cases because it lists a lot of things the developer finds handy during development, rather than essential runtime deps17:01
rdaleah i see17:01
ssam2but here's a case where choosing that approach has come back to bite me17:01
ssam2at the last minute, as these things do17:02
rdalei wouldn't be too bothered about getting extra gems that were only needed for development as long as it was automated17:04
ssam2The problem I had was that this often resulted in dependency loops17:06
ssam2the right answer is probably: read the Gemfile for the goal project (the thing actually being imported) and read the .gemspec file for everything else17:06
* ssam2 adds that to the TODO.rubygems file :(17:06
rdalei'm getting quite a lot of stuff when i run the import tool on each item individually that is in the Gemfile.lock file17:10
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ssam2rdale: it reads all the dependencies from the .gemspec file17:13
ssam2usually the Gemfile includes the .gemspec file, so they'll all be in the Gemfile.lock file17:13
ssam2(the tool uses Bundler internally so the versions in Gemfile.lock do get honoured)17:14
rdaleyes, but i don't think most rails projects would be packaged as gems and wouldn't have a .gemspec would they?17:14
ssam2rdale: I wish I'd realised this a month ago. :(17:14
rdaleyes, i'm currently studying what it does with bundler17:14
ssam2it's not a hard change to make, code-wise, but I don't think I have more time to work on this17:14
rdalewell i can help i hope17:15
ssam2I think it just needs a new type of importer adding which takes a repo URL instead of a Gem name17:15
ssam2one type of importer can 'chain' to another type, so it could pass on the work of importing the dependencies to the existing 'rubygems' importer17:15
ssam2since they will all be Gems17:15
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pedroalvarezwow, looks like weston-ivi-shell has been finally merged in weston upstream17:59
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radiofreeyeah, but that version doesn't work with wayland-ivi-extension18:08
radiofreehttp://lists.genivi.org/pipermail/genivi-ivi-layer-management/2014-December/002294.html18:09
pedroalvarezheh18:13
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