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| flatmush | STANDUP! Order: flatmush, Shaun, ikerperez, ctgriffiths | 09:50 |
|---|---|---|
| flatmush | ## Ben Brewer (flatmush) | 09:50 |
| flatmush | * Done | 09:50 |
| flatmush | - Build latest SYSLINUX from git. | 09:50 |
| flatmush | - Got minimal distro building with freedesktop-sdk junctions. | 09:50 |
| flatmush | - Safety workshop | 09:50 |
| flatmush | * Doing | 09:50 |
| flatmush | - Now I've realised that the minimal-vm distro in freedesktop-sdk is also baserock based, we're figuring out where to make the split between freedesktop and minimal distro. | 09:50 |
| flatmush | - Continue to move freedesktop-sdk sources to git where possible. | 09:50 |
| flatmush | - Port SYSLINUX work to freedesktop-sdk | 09:50 |
| flatmush | ## Shaun Mooney (Shaun) | 09:50 |
| Shaun | * Done | 09:50 |
| Shaun | - Project catchup | 09:50 |
| Shaun | - AV STPA losses and hazards | 09:50 |
| Shaun | * Doing | 09:50 |
| Shaun | - STPA Reading | 09:50 |
| Shaun | - Re-reading handbook in more detail | 09:50 |
| Shaun | - Working through primer | 09:50 |
| Shaun | * Next | 09:50 |
| Shaun | - AV STPA responsibilites and control actions | 09:50 |
| Shaun | * Issues | 09:50 |
| Shaun | - None | 09:50 |
| Shaun | ## Iker Perez ( ikerperez ) | 09:50 |
| ikerperez | * Done | 09:51 |
| ikerperez | - Find a way to report the maximun latency in test-minimal-system script | 09:51 |
| ikerperez | * Doing | 09:51 |
| ikerperez | - Change the way in which fredesktop elements are installed | 09:51 |
| ikerperez | - Change parted from tar to git | 09:51 |
| ikerperez | # Craig Griffiths ( ctgriffiths ) | 09:51 |
| ctgriffiths | * Done | 09:51 |
| ctgriffiths | - Try alternatives to SYS-LIINUX as there are problems building it | 09:51 |
| ctgriffiths | - systemd-boot requires systemd so we dropped that idea. | 09:51 |
| ctgriffiths | - flatmush managed to fix the SYS-LINUX build. | 09:51 |
| ctgriffiths | * Doing | 09:51 |
| ctgriffiths | - Working on using junctions and minimal-systemd-vm-image-x86_64.bst | 09:51 |
| ctgriffiths | from freedesktopsdk for the trustable minimal distribution. | 09:51 |
| ctgriffiths | - Read up on STAMP and previous #trustable discussions. | 09:51 |
| ctgriffiths | ## Discussion | 09:51 |
| Shaun | _o_ | 09:51 |
| ctgriffiths | _o_ | 09:51 |
| paulwaters_ | _o_ | 09:52 |
| ikerperez | _O_ | 09:52 |
| flatmush | Good aeroplane impressions everyone! | 09:52 |
| flatmush | STANDUP ENDS! | 09:52 |
| paulsherwood | elsewhere someone mentioned https://ssvlab.github.io | 09:52 |
| paulsherwood | would this be potentially useful as a test approach? | 09:53 |
| paulsherwood | https://github.com/ssvlab/esbmc | 09:53 |
| paulsherwood | seems to be a fork of https://github.com/esbmc/esbmc not sure what the differences are | 09:54 |
| flatmush | having a look now | 09:56 |
| flatmush | Does anyone have any experience running this? I've run it against a C program and it's spending literally minutes checking a single loop. I suspect we couldn't afford the hardware required to run this over buildstream. | 10:01 |
| paulsherwood | flatmush: interestingly, affordability is never accepted as a justification for failing to address safety... so if this is worthwhile, we might need to find the money :) | 10:05 |
| flatmush | For building linux I think any static code analysis is going to find a large number of issues, I know this because just switching to gcc-8 has caused detectable issues | 10:05 |
| flatmush | what do we do when we find out we rely on programs that have literally thousands of static code analysis issues? | 10:06 |
| paulsherwood | start chipping away at them? | 10:06 |
| paulsherwood | ie offer fixes upstream | 10:06 |
| flatmush | paulsherwood: The solver is still running over that same single loop | 10:06 |
| paulsherwood | sounds like a bug | 10:06 |
| paulsherwood | maybe a problem in the setup of the solver? | 10:07 |
| flatmush | the solver seems to be designed for really embedded C where you don't have loops with a potential maximum index of say (2 ^ 32) - 1 | 10:08 |
| flatmush | I don't think this will practically run against the software that we'll need for a minimal distro | 10:08 |
| flatmush | but if anyone knows of a way to make this practical, I'm happy to be proven wrong | 10:08 |
| flatmush | There are smaller steps towards this if we really think it's where we want to go | 10:09 |
| flatmush | like we could run cppcheck or scanbuild on all of our dependencies | 10:09 |
| flatmush | and the same issues of what do you do when you find a bug (or a potential bug) crop up | 10:10 |
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| paulsherwood | "In my C coding standards written for BT, I recommended that code should be compiled under more than one implementation as a matter of course, not only for the reasons you cite but also because it's a simple check on whether a programmer has inadvertently relied on the particular characteristics of a single implementation. | 15:05 |
| paulsherwood | " | 15:05 |
| paulsherwood | from Olwen on systemsafetylist.org | 15:06 |
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| flatmush | I found out that clang doesn't support nested functions doing just that | 15:15 |
| flatmush | these hints are good for writing new code, I'm not sure how we apply them to a large existing codebase though | 15:16 |
| paulsherwood | ack | 15:23 |
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| persia | For freeciv, when the idea of using two compilers was introduced, the project accepted bugs/patches to make clang work as well as gcc. After a few years, the codebase worked fine with either compiler, and a decision was taken to consider code that was submitted that was not compatible with both compilers buggy. | 18:05 |
| persia | Takes a while, but it is certainly possible to move long-standing projects with lots of almost-orphaned code to comply with multi-implementation language standards. | 18:06 |
| persia | I've seen a few efforts to compile linux with clang. Last I knew it didn't work reliably, but some patches to help have landed mainline. | 18:07 |
| persia | I suspect a similar approach can be taken for any project that has hard dependencies on specific compilers and/or toolchains. | 18:07 |
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