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| Tarnyko | morning everybody | 09:04 |
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| leon-anavi | morning :) | 09:13 |
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| CTtpollard | gunnarx: thanks for sorting out the go.genivi issue | 13:04 |
| gunnarx | CTtpollard: Well, I was only cleaning up my own mess... :) | 13:21 |
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| fredcadete | jonathanmaw: regarding your message to genivi-projects, I also don't see a better way | 16:13 |
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| jonathanmaw | fredcadete: thanks. I have the weird apprehension that I'll be expected to maintain weston 1.9.0 in perpetuity, so I thought it best to make it very public why I'm doing it. | 16:15 |
| fredcadete | is it really necessary to have a GDP version on meta-ivi-9 + weston 1.9 ? | 16:16 |
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| fredcadete | sorry, I haven't been following things for a while | 16:16 |
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| jlrmagnus | Good morning. | 16:32 |
| rjek | Afternoon, jlrmagnus | 16:32 |
| jlrmagnus | Morning. | 16:33 |
| rjek | :) | 16:33 |
| jlrmagnus | We had a late Friday brain storming session at the office, trying to figure out how to standardize vehicle signal names. | 16:33 |
| CTtpollard | fredcadete: there's been requests for having 1.9 + extension1.5/1.9 on gdp9 | 16:33 |
| jlrmagnus | We didn't get too far before we gave up, went out, and got drunk, but I'd love some input from this channel. | 16:34 |
| rjek | jlrmagnus: Start with letters. When you run out of them, move onto numbers. After you run out of numbers, try symbols. | 16:34 |
| jlrmagnus | hvac_front_left_123. Got it. | 16:34 |
| jlrmagnus | gunnarx, I spoke to Anders L about this, and he thought it was a good idea to get together around this. | 16:35 |
| rjek | I often use sort -R /usr/share/dict/words | head -1 | 16:35 |
| rjek | :) | 16:35 |
| jlrmagnus | I was thinking tree structure, like SNMP MIB, with a number of top level nodes such as body, drive_train, hvac, lighting, etc. | 16:35 |
| gunnarx | Aren't vehicle signals standardized by AUTOSAR? | 16:35 |
| gunnarx | (playing 50% devil's advocate here...) | 16:36 |
| jlrmagnus | Haven't seen it since JLR are not members. | 16:36 |
| rjek | Or head -4 to generate an XKCD-style password, such as this joy: "cannibalistic shootable paralipomenon secessionists". | 16:36 |
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| gunnarx | Ah, bummer for you | 16:36 |
| jlrmagnus | We are working on it. | 16:36 |
| jlrmagnus | In any case, the database has to be freely available, and very lightweight in its extension process. | 16:36 |
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| jlrmagnus | gunnarx, Any way of opening that up? | 16:37 |
| gunnarx | rjek, nice password algorithm | 16:37 |
| gunnarx | AUTOSAR? I wouldn't hold my breath under water :) | 16:37 |
| jlrmagnus | Neither would I, hence this discussion. | 16:37 |
| CTtpollard | gmacario: I've responded to your jira ticket :) | 16:37 |
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| * gunnarx enjoys butchering english idioms | 16:38 | |
| jlrmagnus | Open Connect Foundation (IOC / Iotitivy) apparently has something. | 16:38 |
| gunnarx | jlrmagnus, let's for arguments sake say JLR doesn't have an AUTOSAR based standard, surely you have already named all your signals on the bus at least... | 16:39 |
| jlrmagnus | Yes. And we will use that as a starting point. | 16:39 |
| gunnarx | basically I'm wondering if mapping them to other names makes any sense | 16:39 |
| jlrmagnus | We are going through our CANdb and scrubbing signals. | 16:39 |
| gunnarx | well that will make it tricky for anyone else I'd suspect... | 16:39 |
| jlrmagnus | Once we've scrubbed the signal, we will populate a namespace tree with them. | 16:40 |
| jlrmagnus | That tree will be opened up. | 16:40 |
| jlrmagnus | But I'd still like nominal concensus on the basic structure, which is not encoded in the current signalling. | 16:41 |
| jlrmagnus | I.e. What are the top level nodes, and how do we encode seating positions, etc. | 16:41 |
| jlrmagnus | We need this in the RVI expert group since the signal names will be a part of the WebAPI for data harvesting and vehicle control. | 16:42 |
| gunnarx | Not a bad idea to work on although consensus might be a bit hard. You would probably in part be presenting an AUTOSAR-alternative standard | 16:44 |
| gunnarx | "How do we encode seating positions", some of those things already in the existing vehicle signal interfaces? | 16:44 |
| gunnarx | previous GENIVI work I mean | 16:45 |
| jlrmagnus | In our interfaces, yes, but we don't do three seat rows, for example. | 16:45 |
| fredcadete | either AUTOSAR members make their spec available to open standards, or they can't expect the open standards to be AUTOSAR-like | 16:45 |
| jlrmagnus | fredcadete : Agree. | 16:45 |
| gunnarx | fredcadete, I'm not disagreeing with you | 16:45 |
| jlrmagnus | The only previous standard I've seen is W3C automotive group. | 16:45 |
| gunnarx | but you need also to consider OEM adoption of the "standards" that are created | 16:45 |
| fredcadete | and that's all my butting in for today, have a nice evening | 16:45 |
| jlrmagnus | That standard, after a cursory read, seems mostly focused on LBS. | 16:46 |
| gunnarx | jlrmagnus, you should know GENIVI had a lot of input into that | 16:46 |
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| gunnarx | and also worked with Automotive Message Broker maintainer. As far as I know they are all pretty similar by now. | 16:46 |
| jlrmagnus | Yes. And I am trying to figure out who, inside GENIVI< we want to talk to. | 16:46 |
| jlrmagnus | I agree on AMB, but its, and W3C's signal set is far too limited and, to be frank, a bit random. | 16:47 |
| gunnarx | AMB is both an implementation and a kind of attempt at interface definition at the same time. | 16:47 |
| jlrmagnus | Correct. We want to break that up. | 16:47 |
| gunnarx | I'm sure everyone would welcome some continued work there | 16:47 |
| jlrmagnus | Yep. And since JLR now has a clear need for that, I am starting to explore how to move forward. | 16:48 |
| gunnarx | My reference to AUTOSAR was more about the names on CAN, FlexRay etc. and the scope being "all signals on the bus". It's possible the subset that is exposed upward is more limited - thus not too far from W3C / AMB work? | 16:48 |
| jlrmagnus | I believe we actually need to make as much data as possible available (in a secure manner) to on and off board components. | 16:49 |
| gunnarx | I stand behind you. Off the top of my head the previous proposals we have made is to use Franca in the IVI space and translate to/from other spaces | 16:49 |
| gunnarx | Web APIs need to be translated into WebIDL | 16:49 |
| jlrmagnus | Agree. | 16:49 |
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| gunnarx | IONAS is for translating against AUTOSAR although you may not care. and so on | 16:50 |
| jlrmagnus | But I believe we need to start at the bottom, defining the namespace structure. | 16:50 |
| * paulsherwood cheers jlrmagnus and gunnarx on from the sidelines | 16:50 | |
| jlrmagnus | I'll do the usual thing: Sit down with a few JLR colleagues, come up with a proposal, and let the SAT team shred it to pieces. | 16:50 |
| jlrmagnus | At least we will have something concrete to discuss at that point. | 16:51 |
| gunnarx | Happy to participate in the shredding ;) | 16:51 |
| jlrmagnus | BTW: Ericsson's Magnus Olson, RVI-EG's new system arhitect, has a lot of experience interfacing OMA, W3C, etc. | 16:51 |
| jlrmagnus | He will drive the standardization process on the expert group's behalf. | 16:52 |
| jlrmagnus | Hello paulsherwood . | 16:52 |
| gunnarx | sounds good to me | 16:52 |
| jlrmagnus | I'll put together a simple JSON structure (or similar) and publish it on github. | 16:53 |
| jlrmagnus | Speaking of: Did we ever figure out who had admin rights to github.com/genivi? | 16:53 |
| jlrmagnus | For RVI migration. | 16:53 |
| gunnarx | no, and I didn't care | 16:53 |
| gunnarx | wait, what? | 16:53 |
| jlrmagnus | Too late. Your non-careness ha been officially recorded. | 16:53 |
| gunnarx | I didn't think we said RVI should migrate there, did I miss some decision? | 16:53 |
| jlrmagnus | You missed the discussion - decision is yet to be made. | 16:54 |
| jlrmagnus | The proposal from JLR is that we use github.com/genivi as our daily work area, and use auto pushers to keep git.projects.genivi.org as an up-to-date master. | 16:54 |
| gunnarx | Is this a problem issue for you still, where to put stuff? I've been downplaying this as a non-issue at the moment... | 16:55 |
| jlrmagnus | I never get any real feedback from Philippe or jeremiah|AFK on this. | 16:55 |
| gunnarx | and what do you want to achieve by doing that? | 16:55 |
| gunnarx | let me ask this way, who has commit access to that github account? | 16:55 |
| gunnarx | ^^ who would you give commit access | 16:55 |
| jlrmagnus | I'd rather get RVI out of a JLR-owned repo into a GENIVI-hosted one to show that this is a GENIVI repo. | 16:55 |
| jlrmagnus | To the genibi github account? | 16:55 |
| gunnarx | yes | 16:55 |
| paulsherwood | jlrmagnus: hi :) | 16:55 |
| jlrmagnus | The same people who has admin rights to git.projects.genivi.org? | 16:56 |
| paulsherwood | +1 for github.com/genivi | 16:56 |
| gunnarx | yes... | 16:56 |
| jlrmagnus | Hear hear. | 16:56 |
| gunnarx | and... so I'm asking what is the github account used for | 16:56 |
| jlrmagnus | Let's have a look, shall we? | 16:57 |
| jlrmagnus | SDL | 16:57 |
| jlrmagnus | And SDL only. | 16:57 |
| gunnarx | No... please understand | 16:57 |
| gunnarx | what *would you use it for*? (that you cannot use git.projects.genivi.org for). It's all git... | 16:57 |
| gunnarx | Do you have a workflow in mind that involves github.com/genivi for anything else than "keeping code around" (which is then auto-pushed to another git anyhow). | 16:58 |
| jlrmagnus | We presented a git branch / release document a while back, which we would use as a guideline. | 16:59 |
| gunnarx | As I'm sure you can see, I don't "get it", and since I wasn't part of the original discussion I don't know if we have an issue here. As I said, I had assumed this is not a blocker for you. | 16:59 |
| jlrmagnus | It's more of a piece that we need to get right to make this a genivi-owned project. | 17:00 |
| jlrmagnus | The reason for moving to github is primarily to attract more community developers to our projects. | 17:00 |
| jlrmagnus | Github provides a low barrier of entry that everybody knows. | 17:00 |
| jlrmagnus | We could do the same thing from PDXostc, but that repo is clearly a JLR-owned thing. | 17:01 |
| paulsherwood | jlrmagnus: not everyone... there are still some clearcase users left in the world ;) | 17:01 |
| gunnarx | well owned is not the most important perhaps | 17:01 |
| gunnarx | but what then does git.projects.genivi.org not give you? | 17:01 |
| gunnarx | To get to the point: I may be thick, but the only thing I can see github gives anyone is a "one click fork", instead of a few shell commands. | 17:01 |
| gunnarx | Ah, that's another aspect though | 17:02 |
| paulsherwood | gunnarx: you're not thick, but i don't think you're correct on this | 17:02 |
| jlrmagnus | Pull requests, and a brilliant UI. | 17:02 |
| gunnarx | Fair enough, as far as I know this will be discussed further next week. I understand your input then is that GENIVI should use github in order to attract community developers. Fair enough. | 17:02 |
| jlrmagnus | But the bottom line is that if we want to attract more, non-GENIVI RVI developers, we need to roll out the welcome mat. | 17:03 |
| jlrmagnus | And github has the best rug of them all. | 17:03 |
| gunnarx | brilliant is arguable. But I'm not saying the current git.projects is what we should keep forever | 17:03 |
| gunnarx | jlrmagnus, I have picked up that point, no need to hammer it home. Didn't know that was your driving point as opposed to technical | 17:04 |
| jlrmagnus | Ok. I'll rest my case. | 17:05 |
| * paulsherwood smiles, for once | 17:05 | |
| gunnarx | So backtracking a bit I'm still not seeing this as a blocker. Community welcome rug is not preventing you from getting started. The strategic discussion is already on agendas so don't worry. | 17:05 |
| gunnarx | You could start with PDXostc + genivi git basically | 17:06 |
| jlrmagnus | yes. | 17:06 |
| jlrmagnus | we shall do that | 17:06 |
| jlrmagnus | on the phone | 17:07 |
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| gunnarx | jlrmagnus, https://at.projects.genivi.org/jira/browse/TOOL-52 was opened, and closed again. TOOL-9 and TOOL-14 are related. It's a bit messy. | 17:15 |
| gunnarx | Anyway if you are partial to pull-request workflow, feel free to give that input in Tools forums (JIRA & Email might be more useful than IRC). That type of input is exactly what was solicited. | 17:15 |
| gunnarx | Back in the day.... people managed without any stinkin' "hubs" :) Poke the recipient about something, they do a git fetch, and diffs locally with whatever tool they prefer and everyone is happy? :-) | 17:21 |
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| gunnarx | paulsherwood: If you're wondering I was just trying to get to the bottom of jlrmagnus' concern which I assumed was workflow/technical. In Tool-52 I had already last week noted most of the mentioned aspects, including features other than one-click-fork, the large ecosystem of other tools around Github, _and_ the community aspect. | 17:43 |
| jlrmagnus | still on the phone. discussing this very topic. | 17:44 |
| gunnarx | do something more useful ;) | 17:45 |
| gunnarx | Are the participants in the discussion up to date with Tool-52 and other work at least? | 17:45 |
| jlrmagnus | i would say no... | 17:45 |
| gunnarx | that's what I expected :-/ | 17:45 |
| jlrmagnus | i will bring them up to speed. | 17:46 |
| gunnarx | I'm a little concerned with the efficiency of going around and around in circles on this. There is a pretty clear Tools team desire to take this towards a conclusion. There's a BoD meeting next week which I suspect should give input on any strategic matter, and so on. | 17:47 |
| gunnarx | Of course it's your time and I should butt out... | 17:47 |
| paulsherwood | gunnarx: thanks for mentioining https://at.projects.genivi.org/jira/browse/TOOL-52 - that looks like a very useful discussion | 17:48 |
| gunnarx | Of course if you come up with any new arguments that have not been seen, that's fine. | 17:48 |
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| gunnarx | paulsherwood, the content of TOOL-52 was discussed on last week's Tools meeting. We said we have until this week's Tools meeting to come up with any more input before the Tools team should give a kind of technical recommendation. And as I said if there's a community/strategic aspect to all this hopefully the BoD will give an opinion. So it seems to me a communication issue mostly at this point? | 17:52 |
| gunnarx | Don't really have more to add right now, going afk | 17:53 |
| paulsherwood | gunnarx: yup, fair enough. i won't drag TOOL-9 up again, TOOL-52 seems reasonably self-contained :) | 17:53 |
| gunnarx | yes, it was a worthy attempt at least ... | 17:54 |
| paulsherwood | we can only do our best :) | 17:55 |
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| jlrmagnus | Back, too late it seems. | 18:06 |
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| jlrmagnus | Looking into tool-52 | 18:36 |
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| aeiche | Greetings #automotive | 19:32 |
| aeiche | Does anyone happen to know where the recipe is (in GDP) that builds the LayerControlManager? | 19:32 |
| radiofree | that's part of wayland-ivi-extension | 19:37 |
| radiofree | so that recipe will have it | 19:38 |
| aeiche | okay | 19:40 |
| aeiche | thanks | 19:40 |
| aeiche | hmm | 19:48 |
| aeiche | I'm trying to get the layer-add-surfaces component in GDP | 19:49 |
| aeiche | The wayland-ivi-extension repo suggests that GDP should get all of the tools on build, but unfortunately I only see three | 19:55 |
| aeiche | EGLWLInputEventExample | 19:55 |
| aeiche | EGLWLMockNavigation | 19:55 |
| aeiche | and LayerManagerControl | 19:55 |
| radiofree | is layer-add-surfaces part of ivi-extension? | 19:55 |
| aeiche | yeah | 19:56 |
| radiofree | it doesn't look like it was ever merged | 19:56 |
| radiofree | http://lists.genivi.org/pipermail/genivi-ivi-layer-management/2015-July/002913.html | 19:56 |
| radiofree | ah | 19:57 |
| radiofree | it's in examples http://git.projects.genivi.org/?p=wayland-ivi-extension.git;a=tree;f=ivi-layermanagement-examples;h=91ea5362b3d0ccdecae91d622847684d88c6cb3d;hb=HEAD | 19:57 |
| aeiche | Right | 19:57 |
| aeiche | but so is LayerManagerControl | 19:57 |
| aeiche | so I assumed that it'd make the cut | 19:57 |
| radiofree | i seem to remember the gdp using an old version, do you know what version is in the gdp? | 19:58 |
| aeiche | I don't | 19:58 |
| aeiche | and the command doesn't say... | 19:59 |
| radiofree | you need at least 1.4.91, or backport it to whatever version you're using | 19:59 |
| aeiche | IVI extension? | 20:00 |
| radiofree | backport layer-add-surfaces, it's these patches http://git.projects.genivi.org/?p=wayland-ivi-extension.git;a=history;f=ivi-layermanagement-examples/layer-add-surfaces;hb=5626251f7b7ad69079ceb611e640c565e947efc9 | 20:00 |
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| radiofree | i think there's a newever version of the gdp which should have it in | 20:01 |
| aeiche | hmm | 20:01 |
| aeiche | I'm working on the beta right now | 20:02 |
| aeiche | Tom's Minnowboard branch | 20:02 |
| radiofree | http://lists.genivi.org/pipermail/genivi-projects/2016-February/001550.html suggests there's some branch somewhere with weston 1.9, which would mean they've upgraded ivi-extension as well | 20:02 |
| aeiche | Oh right | 20:02 |
| aeiche | that was just this morning... | 20:03 |
| radiofree | i think they're in the process of upgrading the GDP to more mainline components | 20:03 |
| radiofree | it was all a bit of a mess previously | 20:03 |
| aeiche | If I were just building with the defaults though, I shouldn't be dealing with 1.9 anyway | 20:05 |
| aeiche | or need it | 20:05 |
| aeiche | Or have I got that wrong, do I need 1.9? | 20:07 |
| radiofree | of weston? | 20:07 |
| aeiche | yes | 20:07 |
| radiofree | i don't see why you wouldn't want to keep track of upstream weston | 20:07 |
| aeiche | Oh | 20:08 |
| radiofree | i'm not an expert here, but wasn't/isn't the gdp using some odd branch of 1.5 with dozens of patches? | 20:08 |
| aeiche | Looking at the receipe, yes | 20:08 |
| aeiche | I think | 20:08 |
| aeiche | I'm also not an expert | 20:08 |
| radiofree | moving to something totally upstream is always more beneficial in the long run | 20:08 |
| aeiche | I'm just trying to hack my way into running some different QML | 20:08 |
| aeiche | But I'm also on a short term time-table | 20:09 |
| radiofree | e.g multi-screen support for ivi-shell (part of mainline weston) is improving all the time, that's probably something you'd wnat to keep track of in the long run | 20:09 |
| radiofree | do you need layer-add-surfaces for that? | 20:09 |
| aeiche | That's my path of least resistance. | 20:09 |
| aeiche | I figure I can do it a few ways | 20:09 |
| radiofree | if you run the qml app with the qtwayland platform it should show up in the list of surfaces | 20:10 |
| radiofree | surface id == pid if i remember correctly | 20:10 |
| aeiche | Right, but that requires writing a C++ app to wrap the QML | 20:10 |
| radiofree | qml-viewer foo.qml -platform wayland-egl | 20:11 |
| aeiche | hmm | 20:11 |
| radiofree | should work? | 20:11 |
| aeiche | let me give that shot | 20:11 |
| aeiche | I was building off of the AGL launcher shell script | 20:11 |
| radiofree | `LayerManagerControl get surfaces` should tell you if it has or not :) | 20:11 |
| aeiche | that reminds me | 20:12 |
| aeiche | "failed to get surface context in ilmControl" | 20:12 |
| aeiche | is that bad news? I get it with almost anything in LayerManagerControl | 20:12 |
| aeiche | 1 Surface(s): | 20:13 |
| aeiche | - Surface 2 (0x2) | 20:13 |
| radiofree | i don't think it's bad news | 20:13 |
| radiofree | ok... try... | 20:13 |
| * radiofree holds breath | 20:13 | |
| radiofree | LayerManagerControl create layer 1000 800 600 | 20:13 |
| radiofree | LayerManagerControl set screen 0 render order 1000 | 20:13 |
| radiofree | LayerManagerControl set layer 1000 render order 2 | 20:14 |
| radiofree | LayerManagerControl set layer 1000 visibity 1 | 20:14 |
| radiofree | LayerManagerControl set surface 2 visibility 1 | 20:14 |
| radiofree | does the QML show? | 20:14 |
| aeiche | Okay, give me a second to try this. | 20:14 |
| aeiche | Do I need to stop the gdp-hmi services ? | 20:15 |
| radiofree | it's entirely possible surface 2 is something from gdp-hmi services, it shouldn't matter | 20:16 |
| radiofree | did qml-viewer error out then? | 20:17 |
| radiofree | make sure you `export XDG_RUNTIME_DIR=/wherere/is/correct` | 20:17 |
| aeiche | what is the correct XDG_RUNTIME_DIR? | 20:18 |
| radiofree | it's *probably* /run/user/0 | 20:18 |
| radiofree | however i have no idea | 20:18 |
| radiofree | do ls /run/user/0 | 20:18 |
| radiofree | should be some file called wayland in there | 20:18 |
| radiofree | however since LayerManagerControl is working i would assume it's been set correctly | 20:19 |
| radiofree | (try `env` and see if XDG_RUNTIME_DIR is already set) | 20:19 |
| aeiche | yup - /run/user/0 | 20:19 |
| aeiche | okay | 20:19 |
| aeiche | trying again | 20:19 |
| radiofree | basically you need to make sure qml-viewer is run in an environment where XDG_RUNTIME_DIR is set, did it give you an error | 20:20 |
| aeiche | can I use qmlscene? | 20:20 |
| radiofree | yep | 20:20 |
| aeiche | okay | 20:20 |
| radiofree | then check LayerManagerControl get surfaces | 20:20 |
| aeiche | The only errors I'm seeing are the "failed to get surface context in ilmControl" when I do anything with LayerManagerControl | 20:20 |
| radiofree | that shouldn't matter, do you see any more surfaces in the surface list? | 20:21 |
| radiofree | after running qmlscene foo -platform wayland-egl | 20:21 |
| aeiche | after that, or after all the LayerManagerControl commands? | 20:21 |
| radiofree | run the LM control commands later | 20:22 |
| radiofree | first lets make sure the surface is create | 20:22 |
| aeiche | yes | 20:22 |
| aeiche | I have an extra surface | 20:22 |
| radiofree | ok | 20:22 |
| radiofree | so in those LM commands, replace 2 with the surface id of the newly created one | 20:22 |
| radiofree | it's probably not "2" | 20:22 |
| aeiche | no | 20:23 |
| aeiche | :) | 20:23 |
| aeiche | Hey! | 20:24 |
| aeiche | There it is | 20:24 |
| radiofree | hurrah! | 20:24 |
| aeiche | Thank you! | 20:24 |
| aeiche | It's even got an ugly window title bar! | 20:25 |
| radiofree | right, that's an enivronment setting | 20:25 |
| aeiche | okay | 20:25 |
| radiofree | you can basically do "export QT_SOMETHING_BAR=foo" to tell it not to do that | 20:25 |
| aeiche | okay | 20:26 |
| aeiche | I'll have to look at that | 20:26 |
| aeiche | Allright | 20:26 |
| aeiche | that was easier than I expected. | 20:27 |
| aeiche | thank you so much | 20:27 |
| aeiche | Now I have to go try this with a much more complicated QML app | 20:27 |
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| waltminer | can one of the iot.BZH guys tell me what the proper capitalization of the company name is? | 21:39 |
| waltminer | maybe IoT.bzh or IOT.bzh | 21:40 |
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| Tarnyko | waltminer: it is IoT.bzh :) | 21:45 |
| waltminer | thanks | 21:46 |
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| aeiche | waltminer, When all else fails, go CamelCase | 21:56 |
| waltminer | is that like going commando? | 22:04 |
| aeiche | in the sense of making it up as you go along, yes | 22:06 |
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