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| straycat | http://mako.cc/writing/hill-free_tools.html is compelling, i'd not really considered using bitbucket and the like as harmful, but that argument at least persuaded me that the savings i make by hosting on bitbucket aren't worth the potential costs to our freedom | 08:02 |
|---|---|---|
| * paulsher1ood agrees | 08:04 | |
| paulsher1ood | but it'd be hard to give up googledocs, github etc... | 08:04 |
| rjek | <insert normal rjek cloud skepticism here> | 08:05 |
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| paulsher1ood | i've got that set as my global default now, rjek - no need to explicitly enable it here :) | 08:06 |
| rjek | :) | 08:08 |
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| paulsher1ood | any thoughts on 15:24 < paulsher1ood> 'mount: only root can use "--types" option'... but i'm root!? | 08:09 |
| rjek | paulsher1ood: How did you become root? | 08:10 |
| paulsher1ood | sudu | 08:11 |
| paulsher1ood | sudo | 08:11 |
| rjek | If with login/su/sudo, then boggle. If via a chroot/container/fakeroot, then you may not have had the capability transfered. | 08:11 |
| * rjek would strace mount and see which system call is failing and with what error | 08:11 | |
| paulsher1ood | that's beyond my skills | 08:12 |
| rjek | strace mount -t ... | 08:12 |
| rjek | Then you can paste the last bit of output and we can have a look | 08:12 |
| paulsher1ood | the problem is occuring during execution of one of the morph/ybd 'containerised' commands | 08:14 |
| paulsher1ood | s/one of/all of/ | 08:14 |
| rjek | Ah, if it's containerised you may not /actually/ be root | 08:14 |
| rjek | containers have much finer-grained permissions | 08:15 |
| paulsher1ood | no, i'm sudo'd first. then running ybd | 08:15 |
| paulsher1ood | whoami tells me i'm root | 08:15 |
| rjek | And ybd then creates a container to run the build in, yeah? | 08:15 |
| paulsher1ood | s/container/magic long command line of doom/ | 08:15 |
| rjek | If so, the container may not have all of root's privileges and capabilities, but the "whoami" command is ignorant of fine-grained capabilities. | 08:15 |
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| paulsher1ood | point is, this works in a baserock vm, not on ec2 | 08:16 |
| rjek | That seems surprising. | 08:17 |
| rjek | linux-user-chroot should be doing the same thing in both a Baserock VM and EC2. | 08:17 |
| rjek | Because EC2 is just a Baserock VM :) | 08:17 |
| rjek | Anyway, my understanding is that linux-user-chroot throws away almost all capiabilities and things like mount probably won't work inside one. | 08:18 |
| rjek | (For good reason; you could mount something that lets you escape the container.) | 08:18 |
| jjardon | hopefully this will be a good alternative to Google docs: http://blog.documentfoundation.org/2015/03/25/libreoffice-to-become-the-cornerstone-of-the-worlds-first-universal-productivity-solution/ (owncloud has a app to edit docs but it doesnt work very well, a least the version I tested) | 08:18 |
| bashrc_ | what about etherpad? | 08:19 |
| rjek | It's fine if you want a text editor. Less good if you want a spreadsheet. | 08:20 |
| paulsher1ood | http://paste.baserock.org | 08:20 |
| paulsher1ood | rjek: no, this EC2 is not baserock, it's whatever AWS does as default | 08:21 |
| bashrc_ | ethercalc? | 08:21 |
| rjek | paulsher1ood: I have no idea what AWS does by default, sorry. | 08:21 |
| rjek | But it would not surprise me if the defaults for linux-user-chroot differed wildly between different Linux distributions. | 08:21 |
| paulsher1ood | Linux ip-172-31-27-107 3.14.35-28.38.amzn1.x86_64 #1 SMP Wed Mar 11 22:50:37 UTC 2015 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux | 08:22 |
| rjek | But mounting things during builds should be really avoided. | 08:22 |
| paulsher1ood | agreed | 08:22 |
| rjek | There's a reproducability problem there too | 08:22 |
| paulsher1ood | where? | 08:22 |
| rjek | (Block allocation in modern file systems is not deterministic.) | 08:22 |
| jjardon | bashrc_: nice, I didnt know that one | 08:23 |
| rjek | (as they delay as long as they can before writing in order to minimise fragmentation and maximise write throughput, so what blocks get allocated where and when is hightly dependant an amount of RAM and other CPU load.) | 08:23 |
| paulsher1ood | rjek: why would that affect reproducibility? | 08:25 |
| rjek | paulsher1ood: One assumes the file system you're mounting has some input to your build, otherwise why would you be mounting it? | 08:26 |
| * paulsher1ood is not mounting it. just re-implementing what morph does | 08:26 | |
| rjek | Regardless, the reason you can't mount is because linux-user-chroot has forbidden it. | 08:26 |
| rjek | (Probably) | 08:26 |
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| jjardon | 209466s in the last build in mason, I think that's a new record | 08:47 |
| pedroalvarez | jjardon: 2 days and a half | 08:49 |
| pedroalvarez | Is a bit worrying, isn't it? | 08:49 |
| tlsa | it doesn't have a distbuild network, does it? | 08:50 |
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| rjek | And is it CPU, I/O, or task-bound? | 08:50 |
| ssam2 | yes. | 08:52 |
| ssam2 | and, no distbuild network | 08:52 |
| rjek | ah | 08:53 |
| mwilliams_ct | straycat: just to check, is there any more work you think I need to do on 729? | 09:05 |
| radiofree | i'm pretty sure it didn't take me 2 1/2 days to build a weston system on a jetson | 09:06 |
| radiofree | i know it's building devel + openstack as well, but something is happening there | 09:06 |
| rjek | radiofree: Your Jetson probably has better I/O than the mason systems | 09:06 |
| rjek | Last time I measured it, it was 10MB/sec with ~60ms latency | 09:07 |
| radiofree | :\ | 09:07 |
| rjek | (The VMs have no local storage.) | 09:08 |
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| straycat | mwilliams_ct, biff | 09:18 |
| mwilliams_ct | straycat: you're a star, thanks :) | 09:19 |
| straycat | :) | 09:20 |
| pedroalvarez | err... | 09:22 |
| pedroalvarez | just realised that mason built twice some components | 09:23 |
| pedroalvarez | e.g. glibc | 09:23 |
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| paulsher1ood | because? | 09:25 |
| * richard_maw had heard of some race conditions in some versions of distbuild that would allow that to happen | 09:26 | |
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| straycat | richard_maw, are you by any chance planning to review stuff tomorrow? | 09:41 |
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| richard_maw | straycat: I usually do my reviews on Wednesdays, not tuesdays, though there's a couple of things that may require I defer it further. | 10:25 |
| straycat | okay | 10:25 |
| straycat | i'll try and help clear the backlog tomorrow then | 10:25 |
| richard_maw | thanks straycat | 10:25 |
| straycat | np :) | 10:26 |
| tlsa | pedroalvarez: "Started building glibc on mason-x86-64:3434" occurs 4 times in https://mason-x86-64.baserock.org/log/6b14ff59f2acf6d6403f014f50e4ad475a36b381--2015-05-29%2004:10:44.log | 10:38 |
| tlsa | each time it takes over 10 mins and then transfers glibc-doc to shared artifact cache | 10:40 |
| pedroalvarez | ugh... | 10:40 |
| pedroalvarez | 4 times | 10:40 |
| tlsa | 4 times for zlib too | 10:41 |
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| pedroalvarez | also gcc, so I guess that everything else is also quadruplicated | 10:41 |
| tlsa | yeah | 10:41 |
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| tlsa | and GCC takes half an hour each time | 10:42 |
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| ssam2_ | richard_maw: seems that you were right about linux-user-chroot, it does actually create a new mount namespace unconditionally | 11:17 |
| ssam2_ | so the call to `unshare --mounts` in unshared_commandline is unneeded when linux-user-chroot is used | 11:18 |
| ssam2_ | perhaps the reason it's there is for deployments, because we can't run all deployments inside linux-user-chroot, but still want to use a separate mount namespace... | 11:18 |
| ssam2_ | and also because we can't tell linux-user-chroot to mount a devtmpfs or a tmpfs right now inside that namespace, I guess | 11:21 |
| paulsher1ood | does morph even use this stuff for deployment? | 11:21 |
| paulsher1ood | ssam2_: ^^ | 11:22 |
| ssam2_ | paulsher1ood: it uses the 'unshare' machinery (to create a new mount namespace) but not linux-user-chroot | 11:26 |
| ssam2_ | it's nice to have a new mount namespace for deployments because then stale mounts get cleaned up no matter what | 11:27 |
| ssam2_ | but deployment extensions can still delete the entire host system or whatever else, so we can't really say that we sandbox them at all | 11:27 |
| ssam2_ | and it's hard to sandbox them because they each need different capabilities (e.g. to deploy to openstack you need to access the network; to deploy to a USB stick you need to access a block device as root, ...) | 11:28 |
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| richard_maw | ssam2_: the reason for the unshare was so that the mounts that weren't possible with linux-user-chroot could be done without affecting the mounts of the parent namespace | 12:00 |
| ssam2_ | right | 12:01 |
| ssam2_ | so adding support for tmpfs mounts to linux-user-chroot should be enough to remove the need for it? | 12:01 |
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| ssam2_ | assuming we don't start to do anything with devtmpfs... maybe we'd need to add support for devtmpfs mounts to so we can avoid having to pre-create device nodes in the fhs-dirs chunk | 12:02 |
| richard_maw | possibly, I don't recall every mount that is attempted, but the overlayfs work also added a new mount that should be isolated | 12:02 |
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| ssam2_ | hmm, that's true | 12:02 |
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| ssam2_ | i guess there's not much we can do except try to add those mount types to linux-user-chroot as we need to | 12:03 |
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| ssam2_ | anything else will continue to require the user to be 'root', which my goal is to avoid | 12:03 |
| richard_maw | yeah, since enabling unprivileged user namespaces in kernels is not a viable option, since we need to support chroots and distros don't enable unprivileged user namespaces because it's not considered to be secure yet | 12:04 |
| richard_maw | which means we also shouldn't use it in our kernels | 12:04 |
| SotK | Anyone know what the image-package-example directory and its contents are for in definitions? | 12:19 |
| richard_maw | SotK: I used to, let me refresh my memory. | 12:21 |
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| richard_maw | SotK: works with image-package.write | 12:21 |
| richard_maw | SotK: See clusters/image-package-example.morph | 12:22 |
| SotK | richard_maw: thanks | 12:22 |
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| ssam2_ | it's just an example, I'm not sure anyone uses it direclty | 12:35 |
| ssam2_ | *directly | 12:35 |
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| * SotK notes that the description field in "clusters/installer-build-system-x86_64.morph" says that it uses install-files when actually it doesn't | 12:50 | |
| pedroalvarez | oops | 12:52 |
| pedroalvarez | I moved it to its own chunk :/ | 12:53 |
| ssam2_ | seems my proposal to talk about Baserock at EuroPython got accepted | 13:19 |
| ssam2_ | anyone up for a trip to Bilbao ? | 13:19 |
| mwilliams_ct | ssam2_: congrats! | 13:21 |
| pedroalvarez | oh that's great | 13:23 |
| franred | ssam2_, congrats!! :) | 13:23 |
| Zara_ | yay! :D | 13:25 |
| straycat | ssam2_, awesome :) | 13:29 |
| perryl | i'm currently looking at bit-for-bit build reproducibility with regards to morph/ybd, and using the tor project's approach as a kind of guideline of steps i may need to take; a couple of steps involved setting localisation and timezone as LC_ALL=C and TZ=UTC, would these be valid for morph/ybd and if so, where should they be set? i.e. in configuration, for each chunk/strata/system or elsewhere | 13:36 |
| ssam2_ | they need to be set when you run all the configure/build/install commands | 13:38 |
| ssam2_ | in ybd I think that's done in the clean_env() function | 13:38 |
| ssam2_ | in Morph I think it's done in the buildenvironment module | 13:38 |
| perryl | ssam2_: thanks, i'll take a look at those now | 13:39 |
| pedroalvarez | I need a couple of lorries to fix pyeclib build https://gerrit.baserock.org/741 | 13:42 |
| pedroalvarez | pyeclib builds a copy of them that embedded on its repo if their are not present at build time | 13:43 |
| pedroalvarez | and pyeclib does it really wrong | 13:43 |
| pedroalvarez | installing things in /pyeclib.inst/usr/local/lib | 13:43 |
| pedroalvarez | Also I found that wpa_supplicant is being installed in /usr/local/sbin :) I might fix that later | 13:46 |
| pedroalvarez | thanks franred ssam2_! | 13:47 |
| rdale | oh, by the time i had typed in my comment and given you a +1, it had already been merged | 13:47 |
| pedroalvarez | rdale: thank you anyway :) | 13:50 |
| rdale | np | 13:51 |
| Zara_ | does the web editor on the baserock wiki work for anyone else? I think it hasn't been working for me for a while. | 13:59 |
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| jmacs | It did last time I tried... | 14:00 |
| ssam2_ | zara: just worked for me now | 14:01 |
| jmacs | Yes, works for me | 14:01 |
| Zara | ah, the buttons had just moved to the bottom of my screen; I found them when I scrolled down. | 14:03 |
| SotK | q | 14:12 |
| SotK | this is not vim | 14:12 |
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| SotK | Does anyone know why morph copies the contents of deployment extensions that are in definitions into a temporary file and runs that temporary file, rather than just running the script? | 14:16 |
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| Kinnison | i think it's to do with consistency | 14:17 |
| Kinnison | and ensuring that files have the right permissions | 14:17 |
| Kinnison | etc | 14:17 |
| * Kinnison hmms | 14:18 | |
| Kinnison | Since last week was a short week, I shall not do my weekly trawl-through-old-patches this week | 14:18 |
| Kinnison | Enjoy the respite from harranguing | 14:18 |
| richard_maw | SotK: also because they were (possibly still are) loaded out of a repository without creating a checkout | 14:18 |
| SotK | they are loaded from the definitions checkout in the system branch now I think | 14:20 |
| SotK | yes, they are | 14:21 |
| SotK | thanks Kinnison, richard_maw | 14:22 |
| pedroalvarez | what people would appreciate to have tested before moving to new systemd 220? | 14:34 |
| pedroalvarez | My list would be: | 14:34 |
| pedroalvarez | - trove | 14:34 |
| pedroalvarez | - openstack | 14:34 |
| pedroalvarez | - jetson | 14:34 |
| Kinnison | devel system | 14:36 |
| Kinnison | upgrading and downgrading | 14:36 |
| Kinnison | verification that distbuild clusters still come up properly | 14:36 |
| Kinnison | and mason | 14:36 |
| Kinnison | pls. | 14:36 |
| pedroalvarez | good list, thanks Kinnison | 14:38 |
| SotK | hmm, what is version 4 of definitions? | 14:53 |
| SotK | I ask because morph claims to support it, but VERSION and the wiki say version 3 is the most recent | 14:55 |
| SotK | s/most recent/current/ | 14:55 |
| Kinnison | yay for git diff | 14:55 |
| Kinnison | and git log | 14:55 |
| Kinnison | and git annotate | 14:55 |
| SotK | oh, its for a change in the install-files configure extension | 14:58 |
| Kinnison | heh | 14:58 |
| Kinnison | do the extensions get told what definitions version they get? | 14:58 |
| straycat | iirc, it's not really accessible outside of the source resolver | 14:59 |
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| SotK | I guess if I want to increment the version because of a change I'm making (moving deployment extensions into a subdirectory - which won't work without an updated morph) then I bump it straight from 3 to 5 | 14:59 |
| pedroalvarez | SotK: you can't bump definitions version, until there is a release that supports that version of definitions | 15:00 |
| pedroalvarez | that's why definitions versions hasn't changed yert | 15:01 |
| pedroalvarez | yet* | 15:01 |
| pedroalvarez | but go ahead, and make sure that we don't merge the definitions change :) | 15:01 |
| pedroalvarez | SotK: also, I believe I moved configuration extensions to a subfolder in the past, and they worked | 15:02 |
| SotK | pedroalvarez: I see | 15:03 |
| SotK | hmm, I was under the impression that they wouldn't, I'll investigate :) | 15:03 |
| pedroalvarez | write exensions may fail, yes | 15:03 |
| SotK | afaict the code to locate and run them is the same for both kinds? | 15:04 |
| straycat | ssam2_, speaking of unshare the import tool seems to require root because it uses morphlib to run the extensions, do we really want this for the import tool? | 15:05 |
| ssam2_ | it's not ideal | 15:06 |
| ssam2_ | probably it's ok to not sandbox the import tool extensions for now | 15:06 |
| ssam2_ | SotK: maybe moving .configure and .write extensions into definitions doesn't need to require an incompatible change to definitions | 15:07 |
| ssam2_ | I guess the incompatible thing is moving them into a subdirectory, right? | 15:07 |
| SotK | yeah | 15:08 |
| Kinnison | SotK: OOI are you making it so that the deployment mechanisms take paths? | 15:08 |
| ssam2_ | so maybe separate that task out. a patch to move all the .configure and .write extensions into the /root/ of definitions.git wouldn't be incompatible (although it would be ugly) | 15:08 |
| Kinnison | SotK: or automagically finding the extensions wherever they are? | 15:08 |
| SotK | Kinnison: at the moment automatically finding them wherever they are in definitions | 15:09 |
| straycat | ssam2_, *nod* i think so | 15:09 |
| SotK | and planning that they all live in definitions in a subdirectory | 15:09 |
| SotK | ssam2_: that will be doable, but it'll make definitions really messy :( | 15:10 |
| ssam2_ | yes. I guess we'll have to decide whether we prefer to make a release, have messy definitions, or miss out on this feature | 15:14 |
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| ssam2_ | or give up on backwards compatibility again, but I think that would be dumb | 15:15 |
| Kinnison | Are releases hard? | 15:15 |
| ssam2_ | they're not simple | 15:16 |
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| Kinnison | :-/ | 15:17 |
| jjardon | Hi, anyone more have issues trying to log in the wiki? I'm getting this error: "Error: OpenID failure: naive_verify_failed_return: Direct contact invalidated ID provider response." | 15:21 |
| ssam2_ | what openID URL and what wiki URL? | 15:22 |
| ssam2_ | worked for me with 2 different openIDs | 15:23 |
| jjardon | ssam2_: https://launchpad.net/~jjardon | 15:29 |
| pedroalvarez | jjardon: nice hair | 15:29 |
| rjek | wow much hair | 15:29 |
| ssam2_ | jjardon: has it worked in the past? | 15:30 |
| pedroalvarez | launchpad openID just worked for me | 15:31 |
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| jjardon | ssam2_: I think so, not completely sure though. | 15:32 |
| jjardon | pedroalvarez: thanks :) | 15:32 |
| * SotK confirms that moving even configure extensions is incompatible with old morph :( | 15:39 | |
| pedroalvarez | SotK: I promise I'm doing that in infrastrucutre.git | 15:40 |
| pedroalvarez | being this the system: http://git.baserock.org/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/baserock/baserock/infrastructure.git/tree/baserock_irclogs/systems/irclogs-x86_64.morph | 15:41 |
| pedroalvarez | and having the configuration exts in "baserock_irclogs/irclogs.configure" | 15:42 |
| SotK | aha, by giving the relative path as the name | 15:42 |
| SotK | to move all the existing ones into a subdirectory I'd need to do that in every system for the extensions which are in definitions then | 15:44 |
| pedroalvarez | not sure if this is the right approach, although it doesn't look bad to me | 15:45 |
| SotK | I think I'd prefer to patch morph, but I wonder if other people think that the above method would be better? | 15:47 |
| ssam2_ | the above method looks OK if it works | 15:48 |
| ssam2_ | would be nasty for .write extensions though | 15:48 |
| richard_maw | I'd be perfectly happy with patching all our definitions to set subdirectory paths to the configuration extensions in the system definitions and subdirectory paths in clusters for the write extensions | 15:50 |
| straycat | seems reasonable to me too | 15:51 |
| SotK | I shall do that then | 15:51 |
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| jmacs | JDK6 requires JDK6 to bootstrap it, apparently. Neither jikes or GCJ come with JDKs later than 1.5. I think we'll have to live with the binary package. | 15:53 |
| rjek | :( | 15:54 |
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| perryl | i'm trying to build python-core with ybd and getting the following error, can anyone assist? http://paste.baserock.org/eposaqejal | 16:09 |
| paulsher1ood | does your machine have network? | 16:10 |
| paulsher1ood | perryl: ^^ | 16:10 |
| * paulsher1ood notices that the error is very unhelpful | 16:10 | |
| perryl | paulsher1ood: as far as i know, yes | 16:11 |
| straycat | perryl, if you can find the gitdir in the ybd cachedir, check whether the contents look sane | 16:11 |
| paulsher1ood | can you ping git.baserock.org from it? | 16:11 |
| straycat | (the gitdir for stage2-linux-api-headers) | 16:11 |
| ssam2_ | perryl: did you ctrl+c a build while it was downloading a git repo? that can break ybd | 16:11 |
| perryl | paulsher1ood: yes, no packet loss | 16:12 |
| ssam2_ | have a look in /src/cache/gits/git___git_baserock_org_delta_linux and see if it's a git repo, or some corrupt imitation of a git repo | 16:12 |
| straycat | indeed, it will only check for the existence of the directory | 16:12 |
| ssam2_ | it might be in ~/.ybd/gits either | 16:12 |
| perryl | just checked in git__git_baserock_org_delta_linux and it's a tar file rather than a git directory, i assume that is the error | 16:13 |
| paulsher1ood | perryl: pls remove the directory and try again. in the meantime i've raised an issue, will fix it soonish unless someone else beats me to it | 16:14 |
| perryl | paulsher1ood: done, ybd seems to be working fine now, thanks all! | 16:16 |
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| ssam2_ | i've successfully managed to build past stage2-glibc as non-root using YBD | 16:18 |
| ssam2_ | I had to add 'fakeroot' into the mix though | 16:18 |
| paulsher1ood | ssam2_: w00t! :) | 16:19 |
| ssam2_ | i imagine it'll fail at stage2-fhs-dirs, or just past it, because it won't be able to create proper device nodes | 16:19 |
| paulsher1ood | ssam2_: i live in hope that you'll be wrong :) | 16:20 |
| ssam2_ | if it doesn't, it'll fail at the first non-bootstrap chunk because it won't have 'fakeroot' in the staging area | 16:22 |
| ssam2_ | this approach would require us to add 'fakeroot' into build-essential | 16:22 |
| ssam2_ | but that probably isn't too hard | 16:22 |
| richard_maw | ssam2_: fakeroot also fakes up the device nodes AIUI | 16:23 |
| ssam2_ | so it'll be fine up until something tries to actually use one | 16:24 |
| richard_maw | yeah | 16:24 |
| Kinnison | How are you using fakeroot? | 16:24 |
| Kinnison | i.e. where in the command chains | 16:24 |
| Kinnison | ? | 16:24 |
| ssam2_ | Kinnison: https://github.com/ssssam/ybd/commit/53b018f66e258a2b5463cf9d9ecb6cfda54fb66d | 16:25 |
| ssam2_ | it might be possible to use it outside linux-user-chroot instead, actually | 16:25 |
| ssam2_ | it didn't work when I tried it before, but that may have been because I still had '--unshare-net' (which breaks fakeroot either way) | 16:26 |
| Kinnison | ssam2_: and how are you managing the faked? | 16:26 |
| ssam2_ | ignoring it completely | 16:27 |
| ssam2_ | seems to be started by 'fakeroot' | 16:27 |
| Kinnison | and then shut down again after | 16:27 |
| Kinnison | so you'll lose session info | 16:27 |
| Kinnison | between the {pre-,,post-}install-commands | 16:27 |
| ssam2_ | right, that's true | 16:27 |
| ssam2_ | creating the tarball happens outside the sandbox, so I guess this won't work at all | 16:28 |
| Kinnison | yep | 16:28 |
| ssam2_ | thanks for pointing that out! | 16:28 |
| Kinnison | Debian's approach is to fakeroot around the entire build process | 16:28 |
| straycat | speaking of running things as non-root, https://gerrit.baserock.org/#/c/751/ will allow us to run the import tool as non-root | 16:29 |
| paulsher1ood | cool! | 16:31 |
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| paulsher1ood | Kinnison: can fakeroot be used instead of linux-user-chroot, so drop linux-user-chroot entirely? | 16:43 |
| rjek | paulsher1ood: fakeroot won't solve your mount problem either; you're not root at all under fakeroot. | 16:47 |
| ssam2_ | paulsher1ood: there is a 'fakechroot' program, which could be used instead of linux-user-chroot to provide a subset of the sandboxing linux-user-chroot does | 16:48 |
| ssam2_ | it relies on LD_PRELOAD instead of linux namespacing. I think Linux namespaces are less fragile. | 16:49 |
| ssam2_ | and fakechroot doesn't isolate the sandbox from the hosts network, PIDs, mounts, etc. so it'd be a step backwards | 16:50 |
| paulsher1ood | ack | 16:52 |
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