IRC logs for #baserock for Friday, 2015-01-23

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grahamfinneyMoring all08:09
paulsherwoodmorning :)08:32
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pedroalvarezhm... franred has just found an error we made when enabling some configuration in the kernel. After that I've decide to investigate if  there were more errors and I found this:
pedroalvarezare all of those wrong enabled? should we remove "CONFIG_" in all of them?09:46
perrylstraycat: just to clarify, in your review of my distbuild input patch, logging.error sends to morph.log in addition to logging.debug?09:47
perrylcool, wasn't sure if i'd need to add in a debugging line in addition09:48
ssam2pedroalvarez: scripts/config -e CONFIG_FHANDLE seems to cause a change to .config in a Linux checkout09:49
ssam2as does scripts/config -e FHANDLE09:49
ssam2I guess both work09:49
pedroalvarezinteresting.. thanks!09:50
franredssam2, so having CONFIG_ prefix on a scripts/config line does not affect when building the kernel?09:51
KinnisonThey're not *necessary* but they're also safe given:                 ARG="${ARG/${CONFIG_}/}"09:51
franredKinnison, thanks09:52
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ssam2SotK: I've added your public key to testgerrit.baserock.org10:06
ssam2from there you can get to the new Mason to debug it which is
ssam2user for testgerrit is 'ubuntu'10:07
SotKthanks :)10:07
* DavePage hopes there's no password auth ;)10:08
ssam2try it and see :)10:08
CTtpollardthere shouldn't be10:08
DavePageGood good :)10:11
perrylhonestly, all of you! it's a lovely little room in the height of summer!10:11
perrylwrong window!!!10:11
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paulsherwoodactually, maybe we could use Snappy Ubuntu Core for Baserock? It's got systemd, atomic updates, avoids package managers.. and the LXD logo is awesome10:26
KinnisonWell, apart from the 'avoids package managers' bit you're close10:28
paulsherwoodi was trying to be ironic.10:29
* Kinnison is lacking support for detecting irony due to a lack of pig friday :-(10:29
paulsherwoodi remember being told expressly when we tried to get systemd into ubuntu for embedded that 'there will be no fork of ubuntu, we don't need it'10:30
* persia is amused, given the number of forks of ubuntu on the internet10:31
paulsherwoodthis was a discussion with mark/canonical specifically10:31
persiaFor some time , it was the most popular source of forks, although I don't know if that is true today.10:31
Zara_Hm, I noticed yesterday that there was nothing about baserock on the embedded linux wikipedia page. I didn't change it in case it was intentional, though it does make me wonder about how people would discover baserock in the wild.10:35
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persiaZara_: Discovery is tricky.  I heard about it from a talk at a conference I didn't attend, which slides were posted on someone's blog.10:42
persiaI don't know that it is specifically "embedded", since one can use Baserock for other environments as well, but it can do "embedded" fairly well.10:42
* persia keeps quoting embedded, because lots of folk these days misuse that word to include systems that aren't actually embedded in larger systems, but rather are just small, or even not-so-small (e.g. 17" tablets)10:43
pedroalvarezhow difficult could be modify grub to add an entry to boot baserock in a different partition of my laptop?10:47
persiaIt should just be a menu entry.10:48
pedroalvarezI was hoping that it could be that easy10:50
pedroalvarez1) download an image 2) `dd` it to a partition 3) modify grub 4) baserock!!10:51
paulsherwoodw00t! :)10:52
paulsherwoodpedroalvarez: video?10:52
persiaExtra points for writing a script that lets one boot the image off USB, autodetects a grub installation, adjusts partitioning to have space by resizing existing partitions, adds the instructions to cause the Baserock menu item to be present to the grub config for the installed environment, chroots into the installed environment, and regenerates the grub config.10:52
persianote: this may take a while :)10:53
pedroalvarezhehe atm is just in my head, If make it happens, I'll record it10:53
petefothpersia: yes - what could possibly go wriong with that?10:53
Kinnisonpedroalvarez: assuming you're doing grub2 you may simply need to teach it how to detect baserock10:53
pedroalvarezKinnison: and then update the grub entries, 10:54
pedroalvarezhmmm.. :)10:54
persiapetefoth: Actually, surprisingly little.  The tools that Fedora and Ubuntu use for that are fairly polished, and mostly do a good job.  they fall down if you try to have two different installs manage grub, but that's easy: we don't try to manage grub in Baserock.10:54
pedroalvarezI failed on all my attepmts of booting an Image off USB. So I assume that I'm missing something :/10:56
pedroalvarezthat's why I mentioned `dd`10:56
persiaHrm?  I thought we had reports of booting off USB previously.10:57
persiaUnfortunately, I can't recall who had done it.10:57
paulsherwoodrichard_maw: ^^ ? :)10:57
* petefoth tries to remember to use smilies correctly10:57
paulsherwoodi think also mauricemoss_ did something on chromebook?10:57
* richard_maw was booting a Baserock system on his old netbook from USB11:00
mauricemoss_Unfortunately not with grub, the partitions needed for the Chromebook are very specific.11:00
pedroalvarezwow! morph speed ups in the ML!11:21
pedroalvarezrichard_maw: IIRC this was just a rawdisk image (with initramfs), `dd`ed to an usb, right?11:22
richard_mawpedroalvarez: aye11:23
KinnisonSotK: that's starting to look like the speeds I'd have expected from morph.  Yay11:24
SotKKinnison: its mostly Sam's work :)11:24
Kinnisonssam2: yay11:24
pedroalvarezI'll spend some time today to review that. I'll have my time back when it's merged :)11:25
SotKDisclaimer: It still takes ~5s to go from "Deciding task order" to running the build, even with caches, but thats because the build actually starts before the first build message11:26
SotK4 of those 5 seconds are spent asking the remote artifact cache if it has an artifact11:26
ssam2might be worth fixing that then11:26
pedroalvarezcould we maybe add  logging msg to that action?11:26
ssam2appearances matter11:26
ssam2we'll spend lots of time in this channel repeating what you just said as people test the branch and say 'it took 5 seconds for me instead of 1'11:27
SotKif you run with --verbose you get a message saying "Building a set of sources", which means the build has started11:28
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ssam2ok, that helps11:29
SotKis it worth making that show always rather than just with --verbose?11:29
ssam2I think so yeah11:31
ssam2do you have time to look at removing support for chunk morphs in chunk repos? would be good to simplify the code11:32
ssam2although as Emmet pointed out, adding versioning of definitions at the same time would be very useful11:32
ssam2I assisted someone with an issue this week which turned out to be because they were running a 9 month old version of Morph11:33
ssam2but since the version number is a SHA1 and there's no feedback when it doesn't understand new fields in that version, it wasn't obvious that that was the problem11:33
SotKpersia: do you have a preferred idea of how to version definitions?11:33
ssam2I was thinking of having a '.baserock-definitions-version' file in the root of the repo, which would contain '1' or '2' or '3'11:36
ssam2persia expressed his opinion in this channel sometime, it's in the backlog somewhere from the last couple of weeks ...11:37
ssam2perhaps he'd be willing to send it to the list as an email11:37
persiaMine matches ssam2's description11:38
ssam2no need then :)11:38
persiaIf someone else would send email today, I'd appreciate this.  I may eventually get to it, but ...11:38
ssam2i can send a short email11:39
SotKthat would be great thanks :)11:40
persiassam2: Thank you11:41
kejiahuquestion: I got an error "ERROR: Unsupported architecture "x86_32"" today when I cross-bootstrap, but it used to work before, and also x86_32 should be supported... does anyone have an idea how did the error come out?
pedroalvarezhm.. missing ',' in valid_archs??11:53
pedroalvarezkejiahu: can you check if that is the issue?11:53
pedroalvarezkejiahu: between aarch64 and x86_3211:53
kejiahupedroalvarez, I got what you mean, will check, thanks11:54
pedroalvarezI don't see the same code in morph.git master11:55
* pedroalvarez unsighs11:55
grahamfinneyI have a query:
kejiahupedroalvarez, yes, that must be the reason..., thanks11:55
ssam2grahamfinney: are you running ssh-copy-id on your local machine, or in your Baserock VM ?11:57
grahamfinneyOn my local machine11:58
ssam2do you have any SSH keys? what does `ssh-add -l` output ?11:58
grahamfinneyssam2: The agent has not identities12:00
ssam2ah, you need to create an SSH key then12:00
jmacsWhat was the output of "ssh-keygen" ?12:00
grahamfinneyYeah, I thought I'd done that. Hang on...12:01
grahamfinneyyep done that12:02
ssam2is it in ~/.ssh ?12:03
ssam2if not, you need to either put it there, or add it manually to the agent with `ssh-add`12:04
ssam2I think12:04
DavePageYeah, you still need to ssh-add12:04
jmacsI don't think that's what ssh-add does.12:05
grahamfinneyI added it but I noticed it wasn't in there. I'll put it in ther e myself12:05
ssam2jmacs: what doesn't ssh-add do? its man page says ' adds private key identities to the authentication agent'12:07
persiaIt doesn't copy the file to .ssh/12:07
jmacsYeah, that's what I was reading, which isn't quite what you said12:07
grahamfinneyWhat does it do, add to a db?12:08
ssam2right :)12:08
persiaIn-memory data structures12:08
ssam2grahamfinney: have a read of if you're curious12:09
grahamfinneydo, I did the ssh-add before, but it didn't do the job12:09
DavePagessh-keygen should dump keys in .ssh/, ssh-add should add them to your ssh-agent, then it should work12:09
grahamfinneyssam2: Yeh I will12:09
grahamfinneyJust looking for short-cut answers12:10
grahamfinneyRight, copying the file into .SSH and then running the said commands did the trick. Thanks guys. Until my next question....12:18
jmacsGlad it's working. I can't figure out why ssh-keygen wouldn't do that, though12:19
tiagogomes_the unpetrify-ref for m4 is build-essential, was it in build-essential in the past?12:21
persiaI think the issue is that ssh-keygen ran on the host, and ssh-copy-id was run on the guest.12:22
ssam2tiagogomes: I think when I did the initial build-essential work, I had to switch m4 from building from Git to building from tarball12:22
persiatiagogomes_: Feel free to set it to anything you like.  Don't worry about the history.12:22
ssam2that's why it has that branch name.12:22
ssam2so baserock/1.2.3-tarball would be a better name12:23
grahamfinneypersia: following the commands as listed, ssh-copy-id was also run on the host12:25
pedroalvarezgrahamfinney: ssh-copy-id is run after ssh -A host@ip, so it's actually being run in the gest12:27
persiaUnless one has a nifty dynamic prompt, this may not be obvious12:28
grahamfinneyright, I get it. Tah12:29
persiaFor the meetup next month, is there an agenda page on the wiki?  Somewhere else?12:29
pedroalvarezpersia: there is not an agenda, in Paul's email there were some points. That is all we have right now/12:34
persiapaulsherwood: What's the best way to add to the agenda?  Move to a wiki page?  Reply to your mail?12:34
* persia wants to talk about `morph branch`, `morph checkout`, `morph pull`, `morph push`, etc. and make them go away12:35
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paulsherwoodpersia: please start a wiki page, and publish it?13:13
paulsherwoods/publish/inform folks about/13:14
persiapaulsherwood: OK.  I'll start with stuff from your mail.13:14
* persia likely won't get around to that for a few hours, so if someone else wants to extend the agenda first, they ought feel free13:14
paulsherwoodpersia: do you fancy curating the agenda? i might submit a proposal even at this late stage :)13:14
persiaDo we need a curator, or do our usual wiki practices work?  I'm not sure I'll be able to get enough time away from $work to do a good job.13:16
paulsherwoodno problem, let's see how we get on13:17
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tiagogomes_pedroalvarez, can I use ernie to test my changes in ppc64?15:00
pedroalvareztiagogomes_: of course!15:00
pedroalvareztiagogomes_: did you solve the problems with arm?15:01
tiagogomes_pedroalvarez, it is still compiling, but it is at Build 58/17615:01
pedroalvarezthat looks ok then15:01
pedroalvarezI wonder if I still have hardware running armv7b  around15:02
tiagogomes_Didn't we have bi-endian hardware?15:06
pedroalvareztiagogomes_: reading this I think that we could set up a jetson to be big endian:
SotKIs there any chance someone could please review soon? :)15:15
perrylif could get a review or two also i'd much appreciate it!15:16
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grahamfinneyproblem with: morph init workspace -> /use/bin/morph: line 3: permission denied15:37
grahamfinneyAny ideas?15:37
jmacsSounds like you've followed the instructions for up-to-date morph15:38
jmacsTry chmod +x /usr/bin/morph15:38
jmacs(I'm assuming /use/bin/morph is a typo)15:38
persiaThe typo may have been at symlink creation time15:40
grahamfinneyNo, I got that right. Checked the permissions after setting the permissions15:41
grahamfinneyOh hang on...15:42
grahamfinneyNo, thought I might have had it then, but no15:45
grahamfinney+x is set15:45
SotKcan you paste the contents of /usr/bin/morph somewhere?15:46
pedroalvarezgrahamfinney: and is still not working? same error?15:51
SotKare the permissions set properly in /src/morph?15:51
grahamfinney'fraid so15:51
grahamfinneyI opened the permissions right up to 777 just to make sure, to no avail15:53
Zara_have you made the morph.conf file? I remember I forgot that step the first time I used baserock, and it caused me an odd error, though I don't remember what15:58
ssam2does /usr/bin/python work? does running /src/morph work ?15:58
richard_mawhave you accidentally mounted /src with noexec?15:59
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grahamfinneythat might be it actually16:03
richard_mawthe mounting noexec?16:03
grahamfinney/dev/sdb on /src type btrfs (rw, relatime,space_cache)16:04
* richard_maw prefers `findmnt /src`, since it shows a lot more information16:05
richard_mawbut it doesn't look like there's weird mount flags going on16:05
grahamfinneyI did accidentally also mount that to the non-existent /srv16:08
grahamfinneyNot that it made any difference removing that mount, unsurprisingly...16:11
grahamfinneyWell, I'm in on Monday, so someone can stand by me and show me how to suck a dummy.16:24
mauricemoss_I'm cross-bootstrapping for mips with tiagogomes_ gcc branch and a patched morph
mauricemoss_I can't figure out this error:
mauricemoss_It seems there is no script for parsing the baserock archs in the binutils like there is in gcc16:35
pedroalvarezmauricemoss_: le me check, I think I know where to look at16:36
pedroalvarezmauricemoss_: so I assume that "mips64b-bootstrap-linux-gnu" is wrong. How should it be?16:37
mauricemoss_pedroalvarez, the weird thing is if you choose mips64 instead of mips64b in morph, it works. but builds 32bit binaries16:37
tiagogomes_mauricemoss_, you need to check if that is the right GNU triplet for what you are trying to build16:39
tiagogomes_If not, you need to add logic at _env_for_arch() on buildenvironment.py16:40
pedroalvarezmauricemoss_: here there are debian triplets: 16:41
tiagogomes_mauricemoss_,  you need to ensure that the config.guess are new enough to recognize mips. I  doubt they will be for gawk and make at lesat16:41
pedroalvarezand indeed, here we generate the triplet. You have to extend the logic of it I guess.
mauricemoss_ah, I see. that will help I think. thanks tiagogomes_ and pedroalvarez :)16:43
tiagogomes_also mauricemoss_, I've a new system branch that I haven't submitted to review yet. You may want to try that instead16:44
mauricemoss_ok, you mean update-toolchain-v2? I couldn't find a difference to the old one :)16:45
tiagogomes_mauricemoss_, yes that one, it contains fixes for ARM16:47
pedroalvareztiagogomes_: I'm curious about why we need to move m4 to build-essential16:50
pedroalvarezdid that fix arm?16:50
* pedroalvarez reads the commit message and shuts up16:50
tiagogomes_pedroalvarez, GMP can be built a)  generic C code b) machine dependent assembly code. For some reason the generic C code does not work for ARM; but to use the assembly code m4 is required to manipulate it16:54
tiagogomes_s/be build/be built from16:55
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dabukalampersia: I'm going to edit the wbo front page to add an announcement to the baserock meetup. It would probably be good to do that after you've done the agenda, so that I can say, for the agenda, click here.17:40
persiadabukalam: Feel free to add an agenda page now if you're doing that.  I won't get to it for a bit more.17:41
dabukalamyou mean add an agenda page without an agenda?17:41
* dabukalam doesn't actually know the agenda, just wants to tell people the meetup is happening17:41
persiadabukalam: Apologies: yes, create an agenda page.17:50
persiaThe only data I have is and 17:50
persiaIf you do create the agenda page, it might be a good idea to reply to that thread indicating you've done so.17:50
persia(or I can reply saying you've done so when I would have gotten around to creating one)17:51
dabukalamok I will do both17:54
dabukalamno worries17:54
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paulsherwoodquestion about default behaviour in the presence/absence of build-commands....18:13
paulsherwoodfor an autodetectable build-system, if chunk definition has (say) install-commands but no configure-commands or build-commands, do/should we run the default configure/build steps?18:15
straycatprobably not18:16
straycatsome things don't have configure/build commands18:16
persiaI think each of the three (configure-, build-, install-) are different stages, and we should autodetect if any one of them is missing.18:18
persiaSo I can fully specify (including nulls), or skip the entry if I want autodetection.18:18
paulsherwoodso.... maybe i'm confused but...18:19
paulsherwoodi believe morph somehow reasons that stage2-binutils requires default autotools install...18:20
paulsherwoodwhile also inferring that  stage2-gcc-fixed-headers does *not* need default configure or build steps18:21
paulsherwoodam i missing something?18:21
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* persia doesn't know enough about current behaviour, and only has a (likely-faulty) concept of an ideal model18:30
pedroalvarezIIRC stage2-gcc-fixed-headers doesn't install any source. It just creates a file (or a symlink, not sure)18:32
paulsherwoodthat's right, pedroalvarez. but it seems like too much magic that morph decide to skip omitted configure/build, but autodetect and apply omitted  install. i think there are other examples18:41
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persiaI'd much prefer consistent behaviour.  If I have something, use it.  If I omit something, autodetect.  Different logic for different things requires more effort on my part to keep track.18:44
* persia wants morph to be opaque, but easy enough to use that this doesn't matter18:44
* paulsherwood wants to prove that definitions are useful independent of morph18:45
paulsherwood(among other things)18:45
persiaI'd be happy to replace "morph" in my list of wants with anything else, as long as I can't tell the difference: this is the advantage of opacity :)18:47
paulsherwoodfrom elsewhere i notice '* The Baserock toolchain defaults to build MIPS32bit, unfortunately there is nothing to tell it to build 64bit so we are having to alter each instance as it occurs.18:52
paulsherwoodthat seems sad. is it true?18:52
persiaThe reference systems tend to use older versions of stuff unless someone takes the trouble to get the newest shiny bits.18:54
persiaThe work to differentiate MIPS32/MIPS64 might have been done upstream and we just aren't using the latest version.18:54
persiaOr possibly the intent is like PPC, where one can safely run 32-bit and 64-bit binaries on the same system, so there's no need to do anything special, and one only builds 64-bit for those few things that actually require it.18:55
* persia doesn't know enough about the MIPS64 ISA to have a real answer18:55
* paulsherwood wonders if rjek hit this or similar?18:55
pedroalvarezMIPS is not a supported arch yet18:56
persiaI thought we could cross-bootstrap into anything.  I've seen some MIPS chatter once in a while in this channel over several months (although it doesn't seem to be in definitions master today)18:57
pedroalvarezinto anything supported by our (old) toolchain and with a bit of support code in Morph18:57
pedroalvarezThe toolchain is being upgraded so that is not going to be a issue18:58
paulsherwoodah, ok18:59
mauricemoss_paulsherwood, yes rjek patched gcc amongst many other things. when we built his mips64 branch we still got 32bit binaries in the end.19:00
persiaAh, right.  So the issue that we need newer toolchain is the core issue.19:00
paulsherwoodmauricemoss_: ha! :/19:00
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ssam2paulsherwood: if there's a chunk morphology then there's no autodetection of build-system19:09
ssam2the morphology specifies 'build-system: manual' or 'build-system: autotools'19:10
ssam2i think19:10
ssam2if you specify build-system autotools plus some configure-commands, it runs the default (for autotools) build-commands and install-commands but your custom configure-commands19:10
ssam2if you specify build-system manual, it runs nothing except what you specify19:10
ssam2if you have no chunk morph at all, it tries to guess what build-system to use (but raises an error if it can't work it out)19:11
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dabukalamrjek: I'm trying to create an ikiwiki page and embed a google map. The home page has an iframe embed, but it won't let me do it on another page. Am I doing something wrong?19:20
pedroalvarezdabukalam: yes! asking in #baserock :)19:23
dabukalampedroalvarez: It's the baserock wiki I'm trying to edit!19:23
pedroalvarezaha! then it is related19:24
pedroalvarezdabukalam: ISTR that there were some restrictions on it.19:24
pedroalvarezI mean, someone had to relax some restrictions to be able to embed videos on the wiki19:25
pedroalvarezthis may be the same case19:25
petefoth1pedroalvarez: dabukalam: Yes that happened when I wanted to embed videos on the tutorails page. The solution was that somebody had to do something on that page :)19:27
dabukalampetefoth1: OK, I'll leave it for now then...19:27
petefoth1I seem to remeber Kinnison will know / was the person what done it bt I could be wrong19:28
KinnisonVideo embedding is controlled because it involves disabling the random-HTML-removal part of the antispam protection on the wiki19:31
KinnisonIn general, link to videos instead unless you *really* don't want to19:31
petefoth1Checking testirclogs it was ssam2: "+ssam2 petefoth: I disabled 'htmlscrubber' on 'video-archive' and it seems to embed the videos now"19:31
dabukalamKinnison: It's actually a google map I'm embedding for the meetup page19:32
Kinnisonlink to it :-)19:34
dabukalamalso, how do I force a line?19:34
Kinnisona line?19:34
KinnisonDo you mean a horizontal rule (<hr> tag)?19:35
dabukalam"\\ " doesn't work19:35
KinnisonIf you want to start a new paragraph, leave a blank line19:35
Kinnisonif you are trying to control layout of a single paragraph, give up now19:35
KinnisonWhy do you want to break the line?19:36
dabukalamfor the Codethink office address19:36
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* Kinnison is unsure if branchable has multimarkdown configured19:37
Kinnisonif it does then:19:37
Kinnison| foo19:37
Kinnison| bar19:37
Kinnison| baz19:37
Kinnisonis a "line block"19:37
Kinnisonif it doesn't then you're a tad stuck19:37
petefoth1or put it in a codeblock or a quote19:38
KinnisonYou could try forcing breaks with <br> but again I don't know if the HTML stuff will munch that19:38
petefoth1dabukalam: 19:38
dabukalampetefoth1: I thought abotu a codeblock but it looks horrible19:38
dabukalamcodeblocks are for code :P19:38
petefoth1try quoted then - each kine beginning with > 19:38
petefoth1and an address is a code, which identifes a buildign :P19:39
dabukalamKinnison: aha! <br> worked :)19:39
* dabukalam now wonders if he can convince Kinnison to give /meetup embed rights to make the page look cool19:39
* Kinnison isn't a believer in "cool" web pages19:40
Kinnisongenerating wrappers..19:41
dabukalamNot for coolness then19:41
Kinnisonrefreshing wiki..19:41
KinnisonFrom /home/b-baserock/source19:41
Kinnison   b82210b..16779dc  setup      -> origin/setup19:41
KinnisonIn theory "meetup" is allowed to have random html shite now19:41
Kinnisonif you mess it up, I keeeeeel you19:41
* dabukalam kisses Kinnison19:42
dabukalamhope this doesn't offend anyone19:52
DavePagedabukalam: What time on Thursday 5th Feb?19:55
dabukalamthey'll know19:55
* dabukalam grins19:55
DavePageIt doesn't say on the website is all19:56
DavePageIt says it's a "full day" but that could mean anythign :)19:56
DavePageIs lunch provided? :)19:56
KinnisonIf it's 9am most baserockers will be late :-)19:57
persiaI hope so.19:57
Kinnisonunless you pre-warn them19:57
persiaConferences without lunch are frustrating19:57
KinnisonYes and no19:57
* Kinnison often likes going and foraging for himself19:57
* Kinnison is odd though19:57
DavePageI am just asking the kind of questions I would ask of any other conference19:57
DavePageThe specific details on talks and demos is welcome19:57
DavePageBut more logistical information would be helpful; I'd specifically say "The Codethink office is a two-minute walk from Manchester Piccadilly train station, at:"19:58
DavePage"There is an NCP carpark nearby on Tariff Street"19:58
persiaKinnison: I like foraging in odd cities, but I'll either take an extra day around conference, or do so in the evening.  When there's only a short break, I often have trouble finding things, and when it's a long break, I feel like there weren't enough hours in the day.19:59
persiaDavePage: If you have more useful logistical information, please add it.19:59
DavePagepersia: Done20:01
persiaDavePage: Thanks!20:02
* DavePage is assuming that the people who are crazy about Baserock already know everything they need to know, and is providing details to make it less effort for the less engaged whom we wish to energise20:10
DavePageI'd also suggest posting about this on the ManLUG and Geekup lists (neither of which I'm on) and Twitter20:10
* bwh adjusted the optimistic 'two-minute walk'20:11
DavePagebwh: Damn you, now I feel tempted to test it with a stopwatch ;)20:11
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dabukalamDavePage: ah you did it23:23

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