IRC logs for #baserock for Tuesday, 2014-10-21

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pedroalvarezany operator around?09:12
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Mode #baserock +o Kinnison by ChanServ09:40
pedroalvarezKinnison: ca we change the topic to remove the warning about g.b.o and put that the channel is being logged?09:41
Kinnisonis there a URL you want me to put for log access?09:45
pedroalvarezfor now they are being published here: http://85.199.252.110/09:48
pedroalvarezKinnison: thanks09:48
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Mode #baserock +v pedroalvarez by ChanServ09:50
Mode #baserock +v ssam2 by ChanServ09:51
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Mode #baserock +o ssam2 by ChanServ09:57
ssam2cool!09:58
persiaKinnison: Do you have the magic authentication tokens to the DNS API?09:58
KinnisonI *may*09:58
* Kinnison looks09:58
pedroalvarezI'd like to add a /ignore rule in the irssi logger to ignore messages with "nologplease" or similar09:58
Kinnisonheh09:58
straycatIf you wanted to do that you'd want to store state for each nick or somethink like that, so that all messages from a certain nick are filtered out and possibly replaced with a message noting that the original message has been omitted.10:00
straycatBut you can't really do that properly here because there's no requirement that people joining this channel have registered nicks.10:01
persiaCould send messages to unregistered nicks that they either need to be registered to toggle logging or preface each statement with a magic token10:02
pedroalvarezthat sounds like a bot, not like irssi logging :)10:03
Kinnisonpersia: It appears I do have access.  Whether I *should* or not is another question :-)10:04
persiairssi supports sufficient scripting that the distinction is hard to draw, but yes, that reaches well into intelligent automation territory :)10:04
persiaKinnison: The key bit is that *someone* should.  If you are not comfortable with it being you, I suggest a call for volunteers on baserock-dev@ to find a replacement.10:05
persiaFor now, I think it would be cool to add names for some of the services pedroalvarez has published (mason, irc logs, etc.)10:06
Mode #baserock +v richard_maw by ChanServ10:06
KinnisonThere is testgerrit10:06
Kinnisondo we want testmason, testirclogs, etc. ?10:06
Mode #baserock +o richard_maw by ChanServ10:06
Kinnisonpedroalvarez: ^^10:06
pedroalvarez+1 to testirclogs10:08
pedroalvarezabout mason, doesn't sound like has to have the "test" prefix10:09
Kinnisonso mason.basrock.org should have what address?10:10
pedroalvarezI'd add the arch in the url10:10
SotKdoes that mason run tests?10:10
pedroalvarezcause I was going to set up a armv7 mason10:10
pedroalvarezSotK: no10:11
Kinnisonpedroalvarez: mason-x86-6410:11
Kinnisonpedroalvarez: IP?10:11
pedroalvarez85.199.252.10110:11
KinnisonAdded.  I believe the typical propagation delay is one hour10:11
pedroalvarezKinnison: tvm :)10:13
* Kinnison has also put in-train a discussion about getting the DNS moved somewhere where the community can manage it10:14
* persia believes that "Kinnison is a member of the community and has a bag of magic tokens" counts as "the community can manage it"10:19
* Kinnison believes that "the community can manage it" means more than one member thereof10:20
Kinnisonhence today I spread ops for #baserock to more community members10:20
persiaAlthough we should probably have an infra page on the wiki, with indicators of who has tokens (and Ideally have more than one person able to handle requests for each role).10:20
persiaKinnison: Right.10:20
* Kinnison wants to roll baserock.org DNS, MX, listmaster etc into one account somewhere separable from where it all is right now10:20
persiaKinnison: Out of curiosity, is "baserock" a registered prefix with staff?10:20
KinnisonNo, it's pure channel config for now10:21
KinnisonIf you want to organise proper registration in freenode, that'd be cool10:21
persiaI'd rather multiple roles.  Folk who do mail moderation, IRC admin, and infra management tend to have different attitudes.10:21
* persia will put that on the list10:21
KinnisonOkay10:21
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pedroalvarezpersia: I've been thinking this morning about the idea of an infra wiki page.10:40
pedroalvarezgood to know that it's not only in my head10:41
persiaMinds of similar calibers follow similar grooves :)10:41
richard_mawpersia: I like that wording of the phrase. It's less smug.10:44
straycatit also explains why i still spend my evenings watching children's cartoons10:44
persiarichard_maw: Well either we're both forward-thinking visionaries, or we're both so forgetful we need a wiki page to track stuff everyone knows.  It's hard to say on which side the argument for such documentation lies :)10:45
radiofreehow come, when using bash in baserock, my delete key becomes "~"10:51
radiofreehave to set some keyboard layout somewhere?10:52
persiaLack of sufficient terminfo10:52
persiaAlso, weak locale support10:52
persiaIf you happen to configure your local terminal and locale to "linux" and "C", I think it kinda works.10:53
ssam2radiofree: try copying in the /etc/inputrc from a non-Baserock system10:55
radiofreessam2: yay that worked, thanks10:56
ssam2I believe that file should be installed by the GNU Readline chunk, or something10:57
ssam2but I've never had time to investigate fully10:57
petefoth<@ssam2> radiofree: try copying in the /etc/inputrc from a11:05
petefoth               non-Baserock systemwould go well on a 'BAserock Tips and Tricks' page11:05
* petefoth realises he may have just volunteered for something :)11:06
jjardonradiofree: add "\e[3~": delete-char in ~/.inputrc11:18
jjardonoh!, or what Sam said 11:19
pedroalvarezi found this regarding imputrc: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/view/5.1/postlfs/inputrc.html11:25
* jjardon reading about readline just remembers him to send a patch to upgrade readline as the current in baserock is quite old (and makes NetworkManager master no to compile)11:28
pedroalvarezjjardon: we are on that version because of the license implications for Genivi11:29
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KinnisonGPLv3 :-(12:00
rjekwtf does network manager need readline?!12:04
Kinnisonto encourage lennart to add network stuff to systemd12:04
rjekAh, understood.12:05
* richard_maw rolls eyes12:05
richard_mawthere's a command line client12:05
rjekWill he be enveloping `ip` and making its command line syntax even more arcane? :)12:05
* richard_maw sighs and seeks biscuits12:06
rjek`ip` should really be called `if`, but it seems that name was already taken12:07
persiaIs there any strong reason to keep "readline" at a single version?  Why not give it two chunk names, one the new version, and one the old, and use different ones for different systems?12:08
* rjek went to the effort of writing "fakeline", which is ABI compatible with readline but the only call that actually does anything just uses read()12:08
Kinnisonpersia: readline is pretty deep in the stack, we'd have to have a way to parameterise strata from above before we could do that effectively12:10
richard_mawnah, we could make the co-installable12:10
* straycat wants cpython to continue to be built with curses and readline12:10
richard_mawand we'd only use the old readline for stuff which goes to genivi12:10
persiaThis would be a great time to dispose of the strata concept in favor of arbitrary hierarchies :)12:10
straycatjust as I add a command that expects a stratum? >.>12:11
* straycat disappears12:11
persiastraycat: Of course: if we all had the same goals, everything would work, but life would be boring :)12:12
rjekProvides: ?12:12
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* rjek wonders if it would be nice for that. If you have a missing dependancy, morph build spits out a list of chunks you could use to satisfy it.12:13
persiarjek: Doesn't help, because of caching: we need to be able to differentiate the same tree hash for source A compiled against the two different readlines in a way that can be correctly identified when assembling a system.12:13
ssam2franred: hey, you might already know about this, but turns out there's an 'all of OpenStack' git repo12:14
ssam2https://github.com/openstack/openstack12:14
* ssam2 just discovered it12:14
* persia would also prefer to avoid needing to define policies for various "Provides" that cause confusion later: as an example, there are many tools in Debian that both consume and produce SMTP, but only a small subset bother to provide "mail-transport-agent"12:15
ssam2""Any commit in this repo will get a collection of commits in the other repos that have explicitly been tested with each other, if that sort of thing is important to you.""12:15
persiaThe benefits of pre-commit CI :)12:16
franredyeah, but that does not include all the python dependencies for all the modules :/12:19
franredin any case, ssam2, thanks for the link :)12:21
franredand yes, rjek, that would be great but you have autotools, ruby, python, .... which implies to create a big set of tools to import/create new chunks - I think we have started to do this for ruby and python12:23
Mode #baserock +o pedroalvarez by ChanServ12:42
straycatpersia, I think that depends on how broad (or not) the goals are. :)13:20
wikicatWiki change: move 'Moc OS with Qemu' down the list, as it ie probably less commong than using VirtualBox http://source.baserock.branchable.com/?p=source.git;a=commitdiff;h=c73169d13:31
wikicatWiki change: Rationalise the VirtualBox stuff. Remove duplication. USe constent names for the downloaded image' http://source.baserock.branchable.com/?p=source.git;a=commitdiff;h=88e6bb113:31
wikicatWiki change: clarify we are settining up a development image http://source.baserock.branchable.com/?p=source.git;a=commitdiff;h=3da665413:31
wikicatWiki change: S11704 Top-level reqs / Stories for current Baserock work http://source.baserock.branchable.com/?p=source.git;a=commitdiff;h=62ef50713:31
wikicatWiki change: Removed recommendation to use British spelling only per instructions from Paul Sherwood. http://source.baserock.branchable.com/?p=source.git;a=commitdiff;h=52b509813:35
wikicatWiki change: typos http://source.baserock.branchable.com/?p=source.git;a=commitdiff;h=ac792e513:49
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straycatrichard_maw, I don't really know when I'm supposed to use generators over lists. Nothing I'm writing is using much memory.13:58
persiaI always thought it was a shortcut optimisation: that one used a generator when one didn't expect to be exhaustive, and used a list when one did want to be exhaustive (unless the list would be annoyingly long).14:01
richard_mawI generally use generators when I only need an iterable to be iterated once. If I need to use it again then I use a list comprehension instead, or pass the generator to a set14:03
richard_mawpartly I just think it looks nicer to pass a generator to a set constructor, but there's also speed and memory optimisations available14:03
* persia hopes there is an "unless I'm dealing with several billion members of the set" exception there14:03
richard_mawpersia: yeah, if that's going on you either have to filter out the stuff you're interested in, or face the fact that you'll have to generate the iterable multiple times, rather than re-using it14:05
persiaFor that class of thing, if I can't parallelise (lack of available resources), I usually just iterate over a generator, without ever constructing a list or a set.14:05
richard_mawthere's itertools.tee if you want to pass a generator to multiple consumers, but you have to make sure the users of the iterators consume it in parallel, or you end up storing the whole thing as a list internally14:06
persiaRight.  At that point it becomes a hardware question :)14:07
* richard_maw sometimes wants a statically typed language with lazy evaluation with the syntax of python14:08
* persia does not intend that to be taken as a suggestion to add hardware capability probing into software to select alternate algorithms except in the most specific of circumstances14:08
jmacsrichard_maw: I'd like that too.14:09
petefothCan anyone give me the correwtc spell (to put in the wiki - if it were for my own use I'd trey to work it out myself) fr using sshfs to mount the guest vm's file system in the host?14:11
ssam2petefoth: I use `sshfs -o idmap=user root@IP:/src /vm-src'14:12
ssam2to mount /src in my VM to /vm-src in my desktop14:12
ssam2idmap=user translates things owned by 'root' in the VM to be owned by my user account in my desktop14:13
petefothssam2: perfect! Are you using KVM or VB for thr virutalisation?14:13
ssam2KVM, but should be the same for either14:13
richard_mawwe've encountered differences in the past14:14
ssam2with how the ssh daemon inside the VM behaves ???14:14
ssam2ouch!14:14
richard_mawI think we ended up configuring VB to proxy the ssh port locally, so you ended up with an sshfs command as `sshfs -o idmap=user,port=12345 root@localhost:/src /vm-src`14:15
straycatrichard_maw, How come you didn't submit the yarn changes upstream?14:16
ssam2ok. any baserock-in-virtualbox users able to advise petefoth on an approach for sshfs that they know works ?14:17
* straycat advises not using virtual box14:17
* radiofree suggests the sshfs line from ssam2 be added to petefoth's "tips and tricks" page14:17
richard_mawstraycat: because I knew upstream was unable to devote time to reviewing it, and I've previously gotten a wait-and-see response from upstream14:18
straycatAhh14:18
ssam2radiofree: i believe that's the reason petefoth asked for the line in the first place ;)14:18
petefothradiofree: I'm in the process of adding it to the 'Setting up your VM' page14:19
petefothstraycat: I like VirtualBox because it is cross-platform whereas KVM and QEMU are less so. 14:20
straycatpetefoth, I dislike it because I've written software that uses and so know how terrible it is.14:20
petefothstraycat: yes, but it works :) (at least for me)14:21
straycat*uses it14:21
* Kinnison dislikes VirtualBox because its networking is (deliberately) much less capable than KVMs14:22
straycatIt also has various commands that will fail but exit 0 return status.14:24
robtaylorso recenly i discovered that samsung have been implemented a drm capable backend for qemu14:26
robtaylorjust got it working with i386 emulated14:27
* petefoth scrolls backwards to find the sshfs spells :)14:27
robtaylorand now with kvm14:30
robtaylorwoo14:30
radiofreerobtaylor: awesome!14:31
Kinnisonrobtaylor: that's pretty cool14:32
radiofreelink?14:32
Kinnisonrobtaylor: so 3D acceleration is plausible for kvm now?14:32
straycatrichard_maw, If your yarn changes work I think we should merge them into baserock/morph, it's up to upstream to review those changes and decide whether they want them or not.14:33
richard_mawstraycat: yep, that was my plan14:33
* straycat nods14:34
richard_mawrobtaylor: is that related to http://lwn.net/Articles/611212/ ?14:34
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wikicatWiki change: Add to the 'using sshfs section. It's not complete, but it's better http://source.baserock.branchable.com/?p=source.git;a=commitdiff;h=6d96cc214:37
wikicatWiki change: Rationalise the stuff about ssh http://source.baserock.branchable.com/?p=source.git;a=commitdiff;h=8a17aae14:37
petefothHmm wikicat seems to have problem with the oerder changes are made14:39
straycatIt's probably reverse order.14:41
robtaylorrichard_maw: nope14:42
robtaylorrichard_maw: and its massivly undocumented and undiscussed14:42
robtaylorKinnison: yes, appears so. I just ran a webgl demo in a qemu with -enable-kvm14:43
robtaylorI'll push everything up to my github so others can play14:43
Kinnisonrobtaylor: awesome14:43
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pedroalvarezmoing to glibc is going to be more difficult than I expected15:40
pedroalvarezs/moing/moving/15:41
richard_mawwhat's causing you problems?15:41
pedroalvarezbuilding linux-api-headers (stage3) fails when cross-bootstraping because it tries to use bash, and bash is broken because it needs ncurses15:44
pedroalvarezhmm, I guess that adding a stage2-ncurses will fix that15:44
richard_mawthis also requires you put a bash in build-essential15:45
Kinnisonpedroalvarez: IIRC linux-api-headers will actually work with sh, but you need a dodgy script to emulate bash being around15:45
richard_mawI don't suppose you can patch the linux-api-headers chunk?15:45
Kinnisonrjek encountered this when he was trying to bootstrap mips64 -- he may have input15:47
rjekhmm wah whatnow?15:47
pedroalvarezbut, we are building linux-api-headers without bash, and it works, aren't we? 15:47
richard_mawthen it'd be something in glibc that for some reason now requires bash15:48
rjekYes.15:48
pedroalvarezI thought that the problem here is that when builing the stage3 in cross-bootstrap I can't say what build dependencies I need15:48
richard_mawor you've updated linux-api-headers to a version which uses bash15:48
rjekI had a shell script called "bash" that just invoked busybox sh15:48
pedroalvarezI haven't updated linux-api-headerd, but having bash in the system when installing l-a-headers makes the installation behave different15:52
ssam2i'd much prefer a 'stage2-fake-bash' chunk to adding GNU Bash and ncurses and whatever else GNU Bash grows as a dependency in future to stage2 of the bootstrap ...15:52
* richard_maw wonders if it's because eglibc had a patch to make ldd work with /bin/sh rather than /bin/bash15:53
ssam2the only shell script that we need for producing the linux-api-headers chunk is http://git.baserock.org/cgi-bin/cgit.cgi/delta/linux.git/tree/scripts/headers_install.sh?h=baserock/v3.815:54
ssam2which has at the top: #!/bin/sh15:54
ssam2so I don't see why that'd need GNU Bash anyway15:54
Kinnisonwe run make mrproper15:55
Kinnisonthat's possibly not necessary15:55
richard_mawpedroalvarez: can you check whether the ldd script generated by the glibc has #!/bin/bash at the top?15:55
pedroalvarezrichard_maw: if bash is present when building glibc, yes15:56
pedroalvarezotherwise it will have #!/bin/15:56
pedroalvarezsorry15:56
pedroalvarezit will have "#! no"15:56
richard_maweww15:56
pedroalvarez:)15:57
* richard_maw wonders why the patch from eglibc wasn't taken15:57
richard_mawon the other hand, I can't see why it would need ldd to build15:57
richard_mawthe only script I can find in the linux repo that calls ldd is scripts/ver_linux15:58
richard_mawand that's only referenced by the documentation15:58
richard_mawpedroalvarez: can you send a paste of the output of the linux-api-headers build that fails?15:59
pedroalvarezI think I'm failing to explain what the problem is :(15:59
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pedroalvarezglibc when building needs bash present. It uses the path of bash to replace some placeholders, and if it's not present it will put  "#! no" in some scripts16:02
pedroalvarezso i decided to add a stage2-bash, so glibc depends on it, and then it can find bash and do the "right thing"16:02
ssam2pedroalvarez: would a stage2-fake-bash chunk achieve the same thing ?16:03
pedroalvarezthis works ok when building a system, but the problem is when doing a cross-bootstrap16:03
pedroalvarezssam2: it could16:03
rjek.win 5016:04
wikicatrjek: Error: "win" is not a valid command.16:04
pedroalvarezbecause actually glibc doesn't use it, only checks if it's there16:04
rjekGAH GAH GAH16:04
rjekwikicat: Silence!16:04
wikicatrjek: Error: "Silence!" is not a valid command.16:04
pedroalvarezssam2: when you mean stage2-fake-bash you mean rjek's trick to call busybox sh?16:11
rjekexec /bin/sh $@ or whatever it was.16:11
Kinnison"$@"16:11
rjekyes16:12
pedroalvarezi'll continue using that16:13
richard_mawprintf '#!/bin/sh\nexec /bin/sh "$@"\n' | install -D /proc/self/fd/0 "$DESTDIR/bin/bash"16:13
rjekeugh16:14
Kinnisonwell done richard_maw 16:14
Kinnisonthat's hideous, and clever16:14
Kinnisonbut missing a -m075516:14
richard_mawnah, that's the default16:14
Kinnisonit is? eww16:14
* richard_maw wonders if he can get inline chunk morphologies and null source repositories done in a day16:20
richard_mawit'd be a nicer way of adding the fake-bash chunk16:21
persiaDoesn't the default depend on current ulimit (022 for 755), rather than being constantly 755?16:21
richard_mawbusybox install always chmods to 0755, and there's a comment here saying it needs to do this for GNU coreutils 6.10 compatibility16:23
persiaAh, busybox install.16:25
* persia should probably get familiar with busybox implementations rather than just being randomly annoyed by them someday16:26
richard_mawa quick reading of the GNU coreutils source code leads me to believe that the install from that always chmods too, rather than obeying umask16:33
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ssam2surely 'ln -s /bin/sh /bin/bash' is a simpler way of doing it16:48
rjekNo.16:48
KinnisonNo16:48
ssam2perhaps not for Busybox16:48
ssam2why not?16:48
Kinnisonbusybox16:48
rjekBecause /bin/sh is busybox16:48
ssam2I guess so16:49
rjekAnd busybox will go "eh, I don't know what bash is"16:49
rjek(it uses what you execute it as to decide how to behave)16:49
Kinnisonpedroalvarez: to meet the glibc needs you might need to set and export BASH=/bin/bash in your bash shim script16:49
rjekPerhaps we could have an ugly hack where we change busybox to accept "bash" as a synonym for "sh"16:49
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jmacsThat sounds worse than making /bin/bash a script that calls sh16:52
robtaylorKinnison: richard_maw: https://github.com/robtaylor/qemu-wayland-runner16:53
pedroalvarezKinnison: true16:53
robtaylor~ I wanna know what bash is ~16:54
robtaylor~ I want you to show meeeee ~16:54
* rjek looks at robtaylor.16:54
pedroalvarezhahah16:54
* rjek narrows eyes.16:54
Zararobtaylor: that had just started playing in my head too; really don't know why16:55
robtaylorZara: its all rjek's fault16:57
rjekIt often is.16:57
richard_mawrobtaylor: interesting, and does it require anything special in the userland?16:57
richard_mawand the kernel too for that matter16:58
robtaylorrichard_maw: only on the guest side16:58
richard_mawthat's the side I was pondering, so that's a yes.16:59
richard_mawif the work goes upstream, I'd be very happy to see it in Baserock17:00
persiaIs it not in upstream qemu?17:00
robtaylori doubt itll go upstream without effort17:00
robtaylorthese guys seem to be in their own little world17:00
robtaylorhalf of the links on https://wiki.tizen.org/wiki/Emulator require a login17:01
robtaylorhttps://lists.tizen.org/pipermail/dev/2014-March/002118.html17:01
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persiaHrm.17:02
radiofreerobtaylor: i suppose there's nothing special about the version of weston their using there?17:06
radiofreeis it just weston with the drm backend?17:06
radiofrees/their/they're17:06
robtaylorradiofree: i beleive so17:07
* robtaylor adds some reading to his README17:07
radiofreei suppose there's some driver in the rootfs?17:07
robtaylorthere's a kernel vigs drm driver, i think17:08
robtaylorand then some yagl gl libraries17:08
robtaylorradiofree: have a look at the readme in https://github.com/robtaylor/qemu-wayland-runner now17:09
robtaylorhttps://review.tizen.org/git/?p=sdk/emulator-yagl.git;a=tree;h=8f237e3be1d7f1376ba37b20bfe95e5a622f2729;hb=8f237e3be1d7f1376ba37b20bfe95e5a622f272917:09
robtaylorone commit, with everything in17:09
persiaheh17:10
radiofree:)17:10
robtaylorbut still, this emulator they are putting together has some nice things going on 17:10
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robtaylordoes stuff like androvm with a daemon on the guest for controlling simulated hardware17:11
robtaylor(lights, geo, compass, etc)17:11
radiofreeneed some patched libdrm as well? * libdrm - VIGS has it's own part in libdrm17:11
radiofreehttps://lists.tizen.org/pipermail/tizen-submit/2014-April/035488.html17:12
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robtaylorradiofree: seems like it17:13
radiofreei can never unwind yocto recipes, no idea where that git repo is located17:14
radiofreeplatform/upstream/libdrm.git apparently17:14
robtaylorradiofree: https://review.tizen.org/git/?p=platform/upstream/libdrm.git;a=summary17:14
radiofreeanyway it's pretty cool, what's the performance like17:14
robtayloryup17:14
radiofreenice!17:14
robtaylorgive it a try!17:15
robtaylorit seems ok, though mouse pointer feels sluggish, that could just be accerator settings17:15
pedroalvarezbefore I leave: glibc build failure with fake-bash17:23
pedroalvarezhttp://pastebin.com/jqJgNF8717:24
pedroalvarez(this was doing cross-bootstrap, I'm testing now with a normal build17:24
pedroalvarez)17:24
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pedroalvarezit wokrs... -.-'17:35
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persiaSo it's about the differences of cross-bootstrap that breaks things.  Annoying that, but good to understand.17:38
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pedroalvarezerm.. actually I think I was being dumb21:26
pedroalvarezI believe I have to mount some partitions (dev proc sys and tmp) before running the native building of cross-bootstrap21:28
pedroalvarezafter doing that... it works :)21:44
pedroalvarezwith fake-bash21:46
pedroalvarezas a result, I should update this page: http://wiki.baserock.org/guides/how-to-cross-bootstrap/21:50
pedroalvarezbecause some things are missing on the point 321:51
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