| ratmice__ | richard_maw: when you're talking about stripping in 'minimisable debuggable systems', and you say "Option 1 isn't suitable since some binaries shouldn't be stripped", It seems you refer to stripping symbol tables rather than just stripping debuginfo and leaving symbol tables intact? | 04:37 |
|---|---|---|
| ratmice__ | I think the size benefits of stripping out symbol tables are much reduced compared to the latter (not that I have numbers) | 04:41 |
| ratmice__ | so I think there is an option 1b which is plausible strip debug info, leave symbol tables intact, that can be done automatically through 'file/strip' | 04:42 |
| ratmice__ | though its reduced but not minimal | 04:43 |
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| straycat | 17:26 radiofree$ it's come up before, what's the fix for "Couldn't find morphology: | 06:40 |
| straycat | systems/system-that-is-clearly-there-and-commited-to-git.morph" | 06:41 |
| straycat | most likely the morph file doesn't exist at the sha that's pointed to in definitions | 06:41 |
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| Kinnison | Another nail in the 'Docker in baserock' coffin: http://talks.golang.org/2015/gogo.slide#2 | 08:35 |
| * rjek sighs at people | 08:36 | |
| Kinnison | Now if we want docker, we'll need 'go' in build-essential and we'll *require* platform-specific switches for chunk enablement because go can't do MIPS and I'll guess it doesn't distinguish between the various ARM options (though it perhaps does) | 08:36 |
| * Kinnison can't bring himself to read the code to find out | 08:36 | |
| jonathanmaw | "Go is the only language you'd need to know" fills me with anger | 08:40 |
| Kinnison | heh | 08:40 |
| Kinnison | For working on/with G | 08:40 |
| Kinnison | +o | 08:40 |
| jonathanmaw | even if the statement is more reasonable in context | 08:40 |
| pedroalvarez | [22:02:04] <pedroalvarez> urgh, libexpat change broke everything | 08:45 |
| pedroalvarez | [22:26:35] -*- pedroalvarez sends https://gerrit.baserock.org/#/c/718/ to fix it | 08:45 |
| pedroalvarez | (I'm sure today there are more viewers than yesterday) | 08:46 |
| richard_maw | Kinnison: AIUI they were leaving a bootstrap path so release n can build n+1, so it sounds like to bootstrap go you need gcc's go 1.4 something to build go 1.5 | 08:51 |
| ratmice__ | Kinnison: at least there is still gccgo, rust for instance dropped their ocaml bootstrap compiler fairly early in development such that the language that the bootstrap compiler compiles no longer compiles the rust compiler, I believe that they hadn't ported to arm/mips at that point, although they do have the rather interesting/non-conventional ability to bootstrap new architectures through llvm IR (i'm not sure if its been done etc) | 08:51 |
| Kinnison | Yeah, gccgo will become critical to getting this stuff bootstrapped :( | 08:53 |
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| ratmice__ | pedroalvarez: hmm, isn't part of the problem with gettext depending on expat directly that gcc requires gettext and that'd bring excess stuff into the initial bootstrap? | 09:00 |
| ratmice__ | at least that is the rationale for why it does so dynamically upstream i believe | 09:01 |
| pedroalvarez | ratmice__: I didn't know that. It was jjardon who moved expat to the gettext dependencies | 09:10 |
| pedroalvarez | I'm only trying to fix what it's currently broken :) | 09:11 |
| * Kinnison is very much saddened that when he asked if testing had been done he was assured it had been | 09:11 | |
| pedroalvarez | I assumed that the behaviour was tested, but not the build. That is, building expat and gettext on the top of a system | 09:12 |
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| pedroalvarez | should we be worried about what ratmice__ said regarding gcc, gettext, ane expat? | 09:20 |
| ratmice__ | I haven't really looked at expat's deps to see what impact it has on the size of build-essential, I hate this entire notion of optional dependencies that creeps in to everything though :( | 09:24 |
| Kinnison | Given we didn't have expat in b-e before, I imagine gcc has something built in, no? | 09:24 |
| ratmice__ | Kinnison: it doesn't use the xml stuff, I believe gnome/glade use it and do checks for gettext+xml in their configure scripts | 09:25 |
| Kinnison | indeed, but my point is, there's no need to migrate gettext into b-e because it isn't there already and gcc already works | 09:26 |
| pedroalvarez | I hope this is not the kind of issue that we discover once we build a system with a system built with this change | 09:27 |
| Kinnison | gcc's compiler-behavour should not alter | 09:27 |
| Kinnison | I am, however, even more insistent that we need pre-merge testing from Mason | 09:28 |
| ratmice__ | Kinnison: in the first statement you said 'expat', in the 2nd you said 'gettext', I'm suprised there is no gettext in b-e but haven't looked at this problem in depth really | 09:29 |
| ratmice__ | Kinnison: yeah you're right gcc contains a gettext in intl/ | 09:34 |
| Kinnison | ratmice__: sorry, I was referring in general to this shuffle-around :) | 09:35 |
| ratmice__ | so yeah, I don't think there is any problem with making gettext depend on it, it shouldn't affect the gettext(s?) already in b-e. | 09:38 |
| ratmice__ | binutils has one as well | 09:41 |
| robtaylor | Kinnison: | 09:42 |
| robtaylor | sorry, that was accidental... | 09:42 |
| * Kinnison just assumed you were shouting at him :) | 09:43 | |
| straycat | pedroalvarez, franred, How come we're using python-keystoneclient 0.11.1 ? | 09:54 |
| pedroalvarez | straycat: this was Juno's requirement: | 09:56 |
| pedroalvarez | python-keystoneclient>=0.10.0,<=1.1.0 | 09:56 |
| straycat | okay | 09:56 |
| pedroalvarez | straycat: ooi, why? | 09:57 |
| pedroalvarez | straycat: we have updated it for Kilo upgrade | 09:57 |
| straycat | just noticed that we seemed to be using quite an old version | 09:59 |
| radiofree | so what's the reason system-version-manager remove stops working? | 10:00 |
| radiofree | something systemd, something to do with that "machines" subvolume? | 10:00 |
| ssam2 | oh, I forgot about that one :( | 10:01 |
| pedroalvarez | straycat: we will upgrade to 1.3.1 | 10:01 |
| ssam2 | radiofree: https://storyboard.baserock.org/#!/story/43 | 10:01 |
| ssam2 | that would be the best fix | 10:01 |
| ssam2 | in the meantime you can workaround by deleting the /var/lib/machines subvolume manually I guess | 10:01 |
| radiofree | "Another problem is that systemd seems to create a Btrfs subvolume in /var/lib/machines, which cannot be removed with `rm`. This causes `system-version-manager remove` to fail with 'Operation not permitted' for system-versions that have this directory." | 10:01 |
| radiofree | this seems pretty random | 10:01 |
| radiofree | changing 'Storage' to volatile in the journald config at least gets around the lack of a log | 10:07 |
| ssam2 | disabling systemd-machined may be the way forward for now, so the bug at least only hits people who use systemd-machined | 10:13 |
| petefoth | SotK: I am intrigued by your change to guides/arm-howtos which says that partial deployment 'has a number of limitations.' Are those limitations listed / documented anywhere? | 10:13 |
| SotK | no, but they basically boil down to "installing random tarballs into your system at runtime makes reproducibility hard" | 10:17 |
| SotK | and also "system-integration-commands don't get run, and neither do any configuration extensions" | 10:18 |
| ratmice__ | pedroalvarez: sorry if this is somewhat of a goose chase (anyhow summary), there is the possibility that we can include a gettext in b-e, (gcc, glibc, binutils * stages), and just cut that down to (1 * stages) gettext compiles, I'm guessing this would be 'stage1-gettext' etc, and non-impactful since I believe they would be strictly build deps? | 10:18 |
| petefoth | SotK: Thanks. | 10:19 |
| pedroalvarez | ratmice__: interesting | 10:20 |
| pedroalvarez | ratmice__: but then, we will have to move the expat/gettext to b-e | 10:21 |
| pedroalvarez | I'll research about that when I have time :) thanks ratmice__ | 10:22 |
| ratmice__ | pedroalvarez: unsure (depends on if its strictly a build dep, or if it uses libintl as at runtime) | 10:22 |
| ratmice__ | s/as// | 10:22 |
| straycat | pedroalvarez, cool | 10:24 |
| pedroalvarez | libexpat fix merged | 10:52 |
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| ssam2 | thanks! | 11:00 |
| pdar | D | 11:00 |
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| * richard_maw goes to lunch while he rebuilds the world up from libexpat | 11:08 | |
| pedroalvarez | Mason x86_64 currently building glib | 11:11 |
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| franred | pedroalvarez, https://gerrit.baserock.org/#/c/719/ | 11:23 |
| pedroalvarez | franred: in that bug report, they say the fix is not to add a new dependency | 11:24 |
| pedroalvarez | have you found anything useful? | 11:24 |
| pedroalvarez | are you going to just add the dependency? | 11:25 |
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| jjardon | ups, sorry for breaking the build. Thanks for the quick fix pedroalvarez! | 11:29 |
| pedroalvarez | They also claims that this might have fixed the issue: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/158329/ | 11:29 |
| pedroalvarez | jjardon: np | 11:29 |
| franred | pedroalvarez, although that comment in on discussion - see last comment before the latest patch | 11:29 |
| franred | pedroalvarez, please, read the bug report thread... as you can see that patch does not fix the issue, and it is clear that it is still in master because we are facing as well | 11:30 |
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| pedroalvarez | we are not using master though? | 11:31 |
| franred | pedroalvarez, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ceilometer/+bug/1424657 fix which you refer to it is in 2015.1.0 and we are still facing the issue | 11:32 |
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| franred | jjardon, pedroalvarez, ssam2, I've fixed the commit message and the URL https://gerrit.baserock.org/#/c/719/ | 12:54 |
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| straycat | " | 13:19 |
| straycat | "As of 12 April 2004, 44 sets of CPAN modules had names that differed only in capitalization." | 13:20 |
| straycat | nice | 13:20 |
| jmacs | /o\ | 13:22 |
| straycat | this is actually a more serious problem on Windows apparently, due to the case insensitive file system, and perl relying on file system case sensitivity to disambiguate >.> http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=345472 | 13:25 |
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| ratmice___ | very serious problem indeed, it would imply someone was using perl :D | 13:37 |
| ratmice___ | there's also macs with ?sensitivity, depending on the filesystem | 13:42 |
| richard_maw | and then there's a gamut of software that uses : or , as separators for file paths | 13:43 |
| DavePage | And stuff that can't cope with perfectly normal characters like newlines in filenames | 13:44 |
| richard_maw | I know right! | 13:44 |
| * ratmice___ imagines some language that just executes random instructions, so you try and find the right seed | 13:50 | |
| jmacs | I know someone who was trying to do that for the ioccc | 13:53 |
| richard_maw | I know of someone who memorised a random seed for interviews, so he could give a rather daft answer to the traditional fizzbuzz. | 13:55 |
| jmacs | Implementations of rand() may vary | 13:55 |
| flatmush | they rarely do though | 13:56 |
| richard_maw | jmacs: indeed, that was one of the problems with getting solitaire to behave right under wine | 13:56 |
| * flatmush likes complementary multiply with carry | 13:57 | |
| ratmice___ | anyhow what got me there was the notion that perl (particularly visibile through its special variables) has embraced the notion of side-effects at the language level | 14:09 |
| radiofree | hmm.. shift+g in journalctl isn't working on an x86 image | 14:11 |
| ssam2 | broken 'less' perhaps? | 14:12 |
| radiofree | the same image works fine on arm (i think, testing now) | 14:13 |
| radiofree | yes, fine on arm | 14:14 |
| ssam2 | maybe it's your keyboard ;) | 14:14 |
| ssam2 | i can't think what else... | 14:14 |
| radiofree | well i'm ssh'ing in, so same keyboard | 14:15 |
| radiofree | hmm i rebased the x86 image against master | 14:15 |
| ratmice___ | radiofree: I don't suppose it's caps-lock related? (I will note there is shady stuff with capslock/Xorg, where the light remains where X has it set, and terminal/X have independent interpretation of whether caps lock is on :) | 14:24 |
| radiofree | well i'm ssh'ing in, same keyboard, same caps (if any) | 14:26 |
| radiofree | i'm not using exactly the same image on this jetson though, i'm deploying that now | 14:27 |
| ratmice___ | radiofree: i guess i'm saying that doesn't matter (same keyboard), IF you're switching between virtual terminals, because each virtual terminal has independent notion of if the caps lock is on or not, and gives no indication for some unknown reason (it used to work i swear!) | 14:44 |
| ratmice___ | thats probably not it, but to be thorough... | 14:44 |
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| jjardon | Does anyone know what the stars from the story list are for? https://storyboard.baserock.org/#!/story/list | 15:38 |
| Kinnison | Not a clue | 15:39 |
| jjardon | :) | 15:40 |
| SotK | Their tooltip says "Subscribe", I'd guess that clicking them means you get emails when something is added to the story | 15:40 |
| jjardon | Ah, maybe thats the intention when they actually implement that (sending emails) last time I checked was not yet done | 15:41 |
| SotK | heh | 15:41 |
| jjardon | yep: https://storyboard.openstack.org/#!/story/99 | 15:45 |
| jjardon | Can I have a quick review to lorry libgudev? https://gerrit.baserock.org/#/c/720/ | 15:57 |
| richard_maw | jjardon: I'll give you a +1 if you can tell me what we currently have that uses it and currently gets it from systemd | 15:59 |
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| jjardon | richard_maw: NetworkManager | 16:04 |
| richard_maw | jjardon: not currently used in any of our systems | 16:06 |
| jjardon | richard_maw: yes, but its part of our current definitions and will break soon as gudev will be removed from systemd git tree | 16:11 |
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| richard_maw | if a tree falls in the forest, and there's nobody there to hear it, does it make a sound | 16:13 |
| richard_maw | I suspect it may have already bit-rotted | 16:13 |
| richard_maw | but it's reasonable enough justification | 16:13 |
| richard_maw | approving | 16:13 |
| jjardon | richard_maw: Its not, Im using it for my GNOME system as well :) | 16:14 |
| jjardon | thanks | 16:15 |
| jjardon | also, this is interesting because foundation doesn't have to depend on GLib anymore (need to check to be sure) | 16:16 |
| jmacs | Can anyone else "git clone http://www.cups.org/cups.git" ? Times out for me. | 16:19 |
| ssam2 | jmacs: timed out for me | 16:20 |
| jjardon | jmacs: same here | 16:22 |
| jmacs | Cheers | 16:22 |
| jmacs | https might have worked, very slowly | 16:23 |
| jjardon | jmacs: I tried again and it worked now | 16:23 |
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